My Gay Christian Friend’s Response – The Giglio Benediction

The gay and lesbian community was mad at the evangelical Christians over a sermon preached 15 years ago.
The evangelical Christians were mad at the gay and lesbian community for calling the pastor a Hate monger.
So I decided to find someone who is a part of both communities.
May I introduce you to my friend H.B. Allaman.
She is a lesbian woman who loves the Lord and works inside of an evangelical ministry here in the states.
She came to know the Lord in college through this ministry before eventually working full time with them.
Because of this organization she developed a solid and intimate relationship with Christ.
Yet because it is an evangelical Christian ministry not everyone is comfortable with her lesbian identity so she is out to only a few close friends.
I asked her a few questions about Louie and the whole benediction/media/online storm…

Ragamuffins, I give you my friend H.B…

[Carlos] – As a lesbian who loves The Lord, what were some of the hardest things to see on the twitter sphere the last few days regarding the benediction at the inauguration?

[H.B] – Whenever there’s a showdown between the gay and Christian communities, I feel a tremendous internal tension. The hardest part is seeing what appears to be a willful disconnect on both sides. There is this kind of insistence on being polarized and a tacit commitment to framing the other side as extreme and aggressive. Both camps are entrenched in their black and white views and refuse to cede any ground.

I cringe when I read articles/blogs/comments accusing Louie of being anti-gay or promoting hate. It’s grossly disingenuous for the gay community to dig up an obscure recording from 15 years ago and paint Louie as a hate-longer when nothing about his ministry is focused on the gay issue. From what I have seen, Louie just doesn’t use his high-profile position to speak against homosexuality. He doesn’t have a dog in that fight.
I also cringe when I read articles/blogs/comments claiming Christians are the innocent victims under attack by the gay agenda. It is just as disingenuous for the Christian community to claim Louie was uninvited from giving the benediction when the story is not clear either way. And rightly or not, I hold the Christian community to a higher standard. We are called to love above all, and with respect to the gay community we have shown them a false Jesus.

The hardest part for me is the visceral hatred on both sides. The demonizing. The hyperbolic language.

[Carlos] – I know Louie personally and know him as nothing more than a man who loves Jesus with all his heart and has one desire, to make the name of Jesus famous.
What do you think about his withdrawal from the inauguration?

[H.B.] – When I heard Louie had been selected to give the benediction, I thought it was really cool. Being in college ministry, I’m aware of the Passion conferences. I believe the Millennial generation will change the world in profoundly positive ways. They are the most globally connected and aware generation in history, and they are exhibiting an unprecedented desire to act on behalf of the vulnerable and voiceless. I see Louie as one of the only high-profile Christian leaders who has heard the Millennial generation and is empowering them. His leadership in social justice issues (the hallmark of the Millennials), and particularly in fighting human trafficking is supremely admirable. It’s obvious that he’s passionate about it and it’s the focus of his ministry. And I’m sure that’s the reason Obama wanted him to give the benediction, as a nod to the Millennials.

When I heard Louie had withdrawn, I was sad. I was sad because I knew one of my communities had sullied the name of an honorable member of my other community. There are plenty of Christian leaders who should be called out for their antagonistic and adversarial stance against the gay community. Louie Giglio is not one of them.

While I was sad he had withdrawn, I also respected him for doing it, and for how he did it. I think it was a very wise and humble decision. He showed a level of grace that’s unfortunately unusual in the public sphere. I interpreted his refusal to explicitly comment on homosexuality as reinforcing that his focus is elsewhere. He doesn’t have a dog in that fight, and he refuses to be lured into it. A Jedi he is

[Carlos] – What are some things that you think the LGBT can work on when it comes to conversations with evangelicals?

[H.B.] – The biggest need on both sides is less shouting and more listening. I challenge every LGBT person to make a Christian friend or two. Family doesn’t count (mostly because Christian family members are more likely to pull out the clobber verses). Don’t let the vitriol online and in the media dictate your view of Christians. Get to know a few personally.

The gay community needs to realize that not every Christian is anti-gay. If a Christian leader is not an ally, that doesn’t automatically make them an adversary. The Church has actually changed its stance on homosexuality dramatically in the last decade. Homosexuals are no longer seen as evil deviants who must be ostracized, except in the most fundamentalist corners of the community (unfortunately those are also the loudest corners that get the most airtime). The median belief is that being gay is not a choice, but that homosexual behavior should nevertheless be renounced. While this seems unthinkable to most homosexuals, they should at least be able to acknowledge how far the Church has moved toward accepting them.

[Carlos] – What are some things you think evangelicals can work on when it comes to conversations with the LGBT?

[H.B.] – Same advice for Christians. Learn to listen. Make a gay friend or two. In their case, family does count, but that’s not enough. Yes, absolutely seek to move toward a gay family member in love. Don’t clobber them with Bible verses. (Believe me, every gay person knows what those verses say.) Listen to them and love them gently. Even acknowledge and apologize for how the Christian community has wounded them. Beyond that, find a gay friend or two, and do the same. I recently read a blog where a Christian woman wrote an open letter to a lesbian and said, “I’m a Christian but I’m not going to hurt you.” That one sentence makes me terribly sad because it so perfectly sums up how badly Christians have behaved.

Also, the Christian community needs to realize that homosexuals are not out to destroy society. We long for the same things you do. Love. Acceptance. Family. Security. Stability. A place to belong. Homosexuals are not freaks. Yes, there are some who are extreme, but every community has that tiny percentage who are extreme. Most LGBT people are very normal, so normal that you wouldn’t even know they were gay. In fact, if you think you don’t know anyone who is gay, you’re probably wrong.

And stop saying being gay is a choice. It’s not. You didn’t choose to be heterosexual. You just are. Same with us.

The biggest question that keeps rolling around in my head is:

Why isn’t God making gay people straight? It’s not a matter of ability. He could change someone’s sexual orientation. But He isn’t. And it’s not a matter of gay Christians having unrepentant hearts. Most gay Christians I know spent years begging God to make them straight. But God is not doing it. Reparative therapy does not work. God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality. Why? I don’t have the answer. But I think we Christians need to honestly wrestle with that question.

[Carlos] – If you could be any cartoon character from your childhood… Which would it be?

[H.B] – For some reason, the first one to come to mind is Yosemite Sam. I have no idea why. I don’t think I necessarily identify with him. But I do remember appreciating his uninhibited nature. I was extremely shy as a kid, so maybe I admired his explosiveness? And totally not PC with the current gun debate, but that’s my answer.

Thanks H.B. for your bravery and Christ filled responses.
This community is better for them.
We would love to hear your thoughts my Ragamuffin friends…

Los

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I ask this not in a condescending or judgmental way, but just seeking an honest answer.

How can someone who is a true a believer in Christ walk in unrepentant sin? Whether that sin is homosexuality, lust, pornography, gossip, slander, lying, whatever. It doesn’t matter the sin. But if someone says with their life, “The Bible calls (fill in the blank) a sin, but I refuse to repent from it,” how can that person call themselves a follower of Christ?
http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I ask this not in a condescending or judgmental way, but just seeking an honest answer.

How can someone who is a true a believer in Christ walk in unrepentant sin? Whether that sin is homosexuality, lust, pornography, gossip, slander, lying, whatever. It doesn’t matter the sin. But if someone says with their life, “The Bible calls (fill in the blank) a sin, but I refuse to repent from it,” how can that person call themselves a follower of Christ?
http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I ask this not in a condescending or judgmental way, but just seeking an honest answer.

How can someone who is a true a believer in Christ walk in unrepentant sin? Whether that sin is homosexuality, lust, pornography, gossip, slander, lying, whatever. It doesn’t matter the sin. But if someone says with their life, “The Bible calls (fill in the blank) a sin, but I refuse to repent from it,” how can that person call themselves a follower of Christ?

http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

Ditto…’Gay Christian’ is an oxymoron. It’s like saying you’re a ‘Lying Christian’, ‘Murdering Christian’ or ‘Adulterous Christian’…it just doesn’t work. The term ‘Christian struggling with feelings of homosexuality’ works, and trust me there are plenty of things I struggle with – but I realize that those things are wrong and it’s impossible to think being a Homosexual is OK in the eyes of God without ignoring basic Biblical teachings.

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

Totally agree. To struggle with a sin, whether it’s homosexuality or something else, is totally different from just accepting your sin because “God will forgive you.”
joanpball

Your statement would be true if we were called to read the Bible as a rulebook, but it is not. It is a mysterious living, breathing and transformative text that is to be chewed on, wrestled with and contemplated across a lifetime. It would be simple for me to read the scriptures on homosexuality and think I have it all figured out if I ignore scriptures that say I was made free for freedom or that “everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial.” I have come to accept that, when it comes to the scriptures, I do not have the luxury of the absolute. Instead, I must hold seemingly paradoxical views at once and accept that I am on a journey toward a deeper understanding of that which is beyond my comprehension. Many people do not like this, but I think Jesus delights in urging us forward through questions…like any good teacher.

CJ

So who determines what is beneficial or not? So does that mean I’m free to do whatever I want as long as I deem it as “beneficial”? Wow, that kind of puts me in control to determine my own morality. Doesn’t God set the moral standard?

joanpball

That question is brilliant and is at the heart of the journey toward God. It is also, I believe, the reason that Jesus left us with both the scriptures AND the Holy Spirit as comforter, counselor and guide. Consider this. If you read the Bible to decide whether to go to war, you can find stories where God supported war and where he led his servants to walk around a city rather than engage. Some were led to flee enemies and others to stand. Some were struck down for challenging God and others wrestled, shouted and fought God. If we use the Bible as rulebook without discernment of our unique calling over time within its pages, we are sure to misread and misapply it. I think we fall into this trap because, was westerners, we view the path to God as a straight line…Christians marching shoulder to shoulder all doing the same things in the same way toward holiness. But what if it is more like God is at the center of a circle and we are all walking in toward Him. That would mean we are all walking in different directions–sometimes in polar opposite directions toward holiness and toward Jesus. Perhaps this journey is much more complex than the fill-in-the-blank Bible studies so many people rely on on make it seem. Does that mean there is no sin or that God does not set a moral standard? Of course not. But it also means that you can’t view the scriptures about homosexuality as more true or applicable as the ones about freedom and everything being beneficial. You need to wrestle with and pray for a deeper understanding of both.

bill23

The Bible is not primarily a rulebook, but there are numerous places that list things that God calls wrong, both New and Old Testament. There are some clear absolutes, including sexual immorality, homosexual and otherwise. Jesus does urge us forward with questions and I believe critical thinking is important, but let’s not be so “open-minded” that we ignore the plain teachings of scripture, and not just pulling out one verse and making it a catch-all for any of our questions.

joanpball

I think that is the challenge, isn’t it? Discerning which are the plain teachings and which are not. I think Jesus very plainly says many things that people have comfortably shelved as no longer relevant in today’s church (i.e. delivering demons/healing) while holding fast to other texts as plain and applicable today (i.e. homosexuality).

bill23

Not everyone shelves casting out demons and healing the sick. I and my friends heal the sick regularly. I have not cast out demons personally but have many friends who have. The commands of Christ to do those things remain, even if much of the church ignores them.

joanpball

Agreed. I am referring to the larger community of people I have encountered in certain traditions who hold fast to some areas of scripture and not to others, many of whom take a hard line on homosexuality but ignore other commands. You clearly are not one of those people.

bill23

Excellent. Well said.

Steve

Really Bill? You heal the sick regularly? I challenge you to visit your nearest cancer ward and empty the place and shut it down. That would certainly be convincing evidence that your god is real. I look forward to seeing this miracle on the evening news.

bill23

There are thousands of believers the world over who heal the sick. Some more than others. Jesus commanded us to do it, so we do! I pray you will encounter some authentic, wonderful Christians to show God’s love and power to you! I will certainly not be getting into any sort of argument with you on here. Peace.

Steve

Of these thousands of christians healing people, is there even one case where an amputated limb has been restored? Can you cite one case, Bill? Even one? Or do these healings consist of unseen tumors that magically disappear? Can you offer a shred of evidence of what you claim? You’re not going to argue because you can’t prove what you claim. See, I care that what I believe is true. I’m no longer satisfied believing something with no good reason to believe it, which is what faith really is. Good luck to you in your delusion.

bill23

No, I will not offer you evidence in this forum. If I knew you personally, we could have a conversation and I could introduce you to literally hundreds of people with doctor verified miracles. Since you are speaking to me so disrespectfully, I am done with this conversation. Even if you and I differ on our beliefs, you will not find me treating you as insultingly as you have treated me in your comments. Again, Peace to you.
http://www.facebook.com/steve.cole.92775 Steve Cole

I challenge an outrageous claim, and you get your feelings hurt and feel
insulted? I would have thought that real miracles could bear up under
careful scrutiny. It appears I’m mistaken. I don’t believe that you
are lying. You actually believe what you claim. But what I DO think
happens is you interpret data and circumstance through a faith lens that
you very much want to be true. And you surround yourself with others
who share the same desperation. Extra ordinary claims demand
extraordinary evidence. And yet, no christian can produce the evidence
that critical thinking demands. This is exactly why I walked away from
christianity after 25 years. I was no longer satisfied in believing
things with no good reason to believe. It matters to me that what I
believe is true. If I seem harsh, it’s because these types of claims do
damage to and prey upon people in desperate places. That makes me
angry. Every single christian i have ever known in 25 years has been
“healed” by the same means available to atheists. Through medical
science. Where is the miracle, supernatural god healing in surgery and
medication? And I know it seems I have a closed mind. I really don’t.
But I can no longer accept as true a claim just because of who is
making it or it sounds spiritual. As I said, extra ordinary claims
demand extra-ordinary evidence. Somebody provide evidence and I’ll
consider the claim.
bill23

I’m sorry that your experience was so disappointing. I wish more churches displayed God’s power. If I come across a posted story with evidence I think would satisfy your desire for more proof, I will post it here for you. I too wish there were more readily available, doctor verified, stories of miracles for the general public to read. I’ve seen too many first and second hand miracles to ever ever doubt God’s power again!
http://www.facebook.com/steve.cole.92775 Steve Cole

If god has granted you with such healing powers, Bill, I really don’t understand why you don’t pay regular visits to your local hospital, cancer ward or dialysis clinic. Wouldn’t such public displays bring more people to god than prayers for healing done in private?
bill23

Steve, I appreciate your challenge to be more aggressive in praying for the sick (as in, going out in public more and doing it). I do need to do more with what God has given me! So thanks for that! I will say that I have friends who have seen whole hospital floors emptied as they went in and prayed for people. We’ve seen people with metal in their bodies be able to move in ways that are impossible for people with metal in such places. We have doctor-verified reports of cancer being completely healed and never coming back. I regret that there is not more of a resource available to give you the evidence you are looking for. At the end of your comment, you say “Now you have something worth considering”. My position would be that any miracle, no matter large or small, shows the love and power of God and is worth our attention. The dramatic miracles are happening all over the world, but I get excited even for the smaller ones. Cheers.
Steve

Well, Bill, I trust you understand if I don’t accept your claims without evidence. But best wishes to you. An entire floor full of patients who are completely restored to health and are able to walk out en mass is an impressive feat. I’m not accusing you of falsehood, I just wonder why an event like that didn’t get world wide news coverage?
bill23

Yep! I know you won’t accept my claims without evidence. No problem. I, too, wonder why there isn’t more media coverage of stuff like this. Maybe because lots of people would think you were nuts if your news outlet started talking about miracles and stuff. It’s way more popular to talk about disasters and gossip. Positive news doesn’t sell real well. Anyway all the best to you, too!
bill23

I can’t provide evidence for it, but I prayed for a lady recently who had lost her peripheral vision 10 years ago after eye surgery. After a 30 second prayer, she had her peripheral vision back. It was amazing. Again, I don’t expect you to be convinced by this, just sharing

http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

1. Free-will is an illusion – but that’s another thread entirely… 2. Your quote about all things being lawful (permissible) is when Paul is talking specifically about animal sacrifices to Pagan gods and what you should do if you are invited for dinner and someone says that the animal has been sacrificed. Moreover, he says you SHOULDN’T eat it. Sorry, had to mention it, because the scripture you yanked from context goes on to give specific direction about what TO DO vs. NOT TO DO, which is exactly the opposite of what you attempted to argue.

joanpball

Jeremy, it is clear to me from your post that you have clarity around this issue and that we differ in central ways in our understanding and practice of Christian faith. I wish you well in your journey.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks for your thoughtful words, Joan. I really love this! My intent in sharing was not to become the object of a theological debate. My intent was to help build bridges between the gay & Christian communities. There’s so much antagonism between the two, which I think stems from fear. We tend to fear what we do not know, what seems foreign to us. So the best way to reduce the antagonism is to diminish the fear by getting to know each other.

joanpball

Agreed. To that end, I know you are writing anonymously, something I understand but find regretful. Email me any time at joanpball@gmail.com if you want to connect with a sister who will love you as you are…

BWF

Jeremy, do you not realize how contemptuous your words are when you equate gayness with murder?
BWF

Jeremy, do you not realize how contemptuous your words are when you equate gayness with murder?

joanpball

Wait, are you saying that most “true believers” are actively repentant of gossip?

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I’m saying that there’s a difference between “I’m a Christian and I struggle with (fill in the blank sin), but I’m pursuing holiness,” and “I’m a Christian and I am a (homosexual/adulterer/gossip) and you have to deal with it or your judgmental and intolerant.”

Repentant doesn’t mean you don’t ever struggle with that sin, it means that you are actively pursuing Christ to redeem your heart.

ragamuffinsoul

How do you even know her heart?
Seriously.
The issue is not that in the post…
You don’t know if she is involved in a relationship.
You don’t know if she is celibate.
You don’t know anything.
This is where we go wrong. So wrong.

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I wasn’t accusing her of anything. You’re right, I don’t know her heart. I’m sorry if my post implied that I did, because it was not necessarily directed at her. My question was more so directed toward our society in general.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

This part of the conversation made me think: “Weird to be talked about like I’m not in the room.” Carry on.

http://twitter.com/mdwilliams1988 Matthew

Los, in all love, I don’t know that the original statement was directed against H B as much as _to_ those who use such phrases. I could certainly be wrong though.

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

You’re exactly right Matthew. I was not directing that toward H.B. at all.

ragamuffinsoul

cool.

http://twitter.com/DennyArcher Denny Archer

The hard part about this is that she never directly addresses her struggle regarding repentance one way or another. That was not the direct point of the “interview” however, it would have been helpful in achieving the goal of educating those who are unaware of her perspective. Many people have no idea about the struggle of their bible believing friends who struggle with homosexuality and the vagueness of her “status” simply bates the assumption and inadvertently causes many to just categorize her in with the other “sinners”. Sure it’s lame to assume, but with nobody saying otherwise, why would you possibly expect anyone to assume anything else?
rob

Its stated in the opening of the article, she is a “lesbian woman”, like shes proud to be a lesbian, speaking up for the LGBT. She states christians should get to know gay people and vice versa, I agree we should that is christ like, but not for the purpose to accept the path they have chosen. She said herself she was made that way. Im sorry bu thats not true.

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

I see NOTHING in her post that leads me to believe she’s unrepentant. I think that’s an unfair characterization.

ragamuffinsoul

How can a post lead you to believe what is in another humans heart?
Dear Lord help us.

http://twitter.com/JCWert Jason Wert

When someone shares their views, is that them not showing their heart?

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

No, Jason. It’s them sharing their opinion. I hope to God you’ve been in a position where your heart and views don’t line up 100%. I know since I became a parent the two are constantly at war with me.

http://twitter.com/JCWert Jason Wert

Your opinion comes from the things you feel in your heart. ” For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Matthew 12:34 ESV)
You can easily replace “mouth speaks” with “fingers type”.

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

Dude.
I get it.
Morality isn’t all neat and tidy. Stretch a little. Black and white lives are really comfortable. But there’s growth in the grey.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

I like you, Virgil.

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

^^^
Jesus save us from your people.

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

Do you see anything in my post that leads you to believe I’m talking about her specifically?
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

This part of the conversation made me think: “It seems to be really important to figure out if I’m repentant or unrepentant. Why?”

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

Because the group is trying to decide how big a rock to pick up.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Wait, I think I see Jesus drawing something in the dirt…

http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I ask this not in a condescending or judgmental way, but just seeking an honest answer.

How can someone who is a true a believer in Christ walk in unrepentant sin? Whether that sin is homosexuality, lust, pornography, gossip, slander, lying, whatever. It doesn’t matter the sin. But if someone says with their life, “The Bible calls (fill in the blank) a sin, but I refuse to repent from it,” how can that person call themselves a follower of Christ?
http://twitter.com/drew_bernard Drew Bernard

I ask this not in a condescending or judgmental way, but just seeking an honest answer.

How can someone who is a true a believer in Christ walk in unrepentant sin? Whether that sin is homosexuality, lust, pornography, gossip, slander, lying, whatever. It doesn’t matter the sin. But if someone says with their life, “The Bible calls (fill in the blank) a sin, but I refuse to repent from it,” how can that person call themselves a follower of Christ?
joanpball

Saddest part of this post and the one evangelicalism needs to look at very, very closely: “Yet because it is an evangelical Christian ministry not everyone is
comfortable with her lesbian identity so she is out to only a few close
friends.”

Ryan

that’s because lesbianism is not a biblical identity.

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

Neither are dishonesty, theft, anger, abuse, neglect …

BR

Not “Love the sinner and hate the sin”. Rather “Love the sinner and HATE YOUR OWN SIN!”.
http://vagabondrun.com/ Kyle Reese

I tend to lean towards the conservative side of the political platform, and I openly do not agree with the lifestyle of the LGBT community. However, with that said, when I see the hate that is put forth towards the LGBT, it sickens me…especially since most of them are fellow Christian’s. If more effort was put forth in loving the LGBT, I can only imagine what we could do for Christ’s Kingdom.

Now with all of that said, my heart was stopped and pierced by something H.B. said, and I hope the same thing took place for the rest of the community who does not support or agree with LGBT’s.

“Most gay Christians I know spent years begging God to make them straight. But God is not doing it. Reparative therapy does not work. God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality. Why? I don’t have the answer. But I think we Christians need to honestly wrestle with that question.”

Wow…Amen. I’ve never thought about it like that. I hope if nothing else, all of us pray over that snippet of her interview with Carlos.

Thanks Carlos for being bold.

http://www.facebook.com/timothymroberson Liz Roberson

Thanks for that.
http://twitter.com/JCWert Jason Wert

Well, as for her question, there are a lot of alcoholics who still struggle with alcohol. There are a lot of former porn addicts who still struggle with porn. We all have tempations in this world and while for some God removes the temptation, to many others he does not. To pretend this is just something that is restricted to “gay” Christians is being dishonest in the discussion.
And that’s a big part of this problem…those who are “gay” Christians try to separate themselves from any other Christian struggling with a sin issue in their lives. If they want to be accepted, they have to stop pretending their struggle is different than that of the alcoholic, porn addict, etc.

http://vagabondrun.com/ Kyle Reese

I do think when you’re discussing an emotional, physical, sexual attraction, it definitely is different than that of a chemical imbalance that causes addiction to alcohol, drugs, etc. I don’t think you can equally compare an addiction to an honest attraction to another being. I think the two are completely separate. I am not stating that both are not sin or that one sin is greater than the other; I am merely stating from the stand point that you cannot approach both an addiction to drugs, porn, alcohol to that of an attraction of any sort to someone of the opposite or equal sex. I find that direct comparing to be very callus, careless, and extremely dangerous.

http://twitter.com/JCWert Jason Wert

Nothing callus about it at all. You’re just making the assumption that the brain function that causes people to be tempted toward something like alcohol is not the same kind of brain function that moves people toward attraction toward other people. This is the real problem; that somehow the issue involving those tempted by homosexuality are completely different than anything else. Why? Because those who are tempted in that direction say so?
Is it because we demonize addictions as well?
I believe it’s extremely dangerous to say that someone being attracted to someone of the same gender is automatically some kind of brain process completely different than any other brain process. And it’s also dangerous to say the temptation to engage in homosexual behavior is somehow different than any other tempation to sin. If all sin is equal, then the temptations into that behavior are also equal in their core nature.
http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

Not much of a comment here, but something I found interesting – most people I speak to that are from the other side of the argument (see nothing wrong with homosexuality as a Christian) state that the reason it is okay is because of genetics – which is the same reason some people struggle with other things more than their peers.

joanpball

Herein lies the challenge. You are viewing homosexuality as an addiction. How did you come to that conclusion?

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks for this, Kyle. Bridge just got built!

http://www.facebook.com/chris.via1 Chris Via

“If a Christian leader is not an ally, that doesn’t automatically make them an adversary.” That’s so wise. Thank you, Carlos, for caring enough to give her a platform. That’s the only way God-honoring discussion can happen.

I do have a question, though. H.B. has asked Christians to stop saying that homosexuality is a choice. If we continue to see Scripture as running contradictory to a homosexual lifestyle, I’m not sure how we land on the issue, other than saying that someone can be born gay but just not live that out, if you will. How would you (or HB, even) say that those of us who read Scripture more traditionally give an explanation for that tension?

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks for your question, Chris. That tension is very real, and I think it’s okay, even necessary, to sit with the tension rather than resolve it. When people asked Jesus a question, He often responded with another question.
We humans really like answers and certainty, but the spiritual life dwells in tension and mystery. I think Jesus beckons us to enter the mystery, to live in the tension, while turning our eyes to Him.
So, I cannot tell you where to land on the issue of homosexuality. What I can tell you is this: giving an explanation is less important than giving love.

http://www.facebook.com/chris.via1 Chris Via

Thank you for your response, HB. I really appreciate it.

http://twitter.com/robbpaul Robb Paul

While I agree with Drew Bernard in not understanding how a person can be a “Gay Christian” merely because to act on your homosexuality you would have to so outside the bounds of marriage, I also have to disagree with his premise.

I know many men including Pastors who are addicted to pornography but still are Christ followers. Or any other number of sins.

Please understand that a person being or acting on homosexual tendencies is no more guilty of putting Christ on the cross than you or I when we tell a “white lie” to our kids about what we do after we put them to bed…

http://twitter.com/JCWert Jason Wert

Robb, there is a flaw in your argument: how many pastors addicted to porn do you know out there saying that’s not a sin and that there’s nothing in the Bible that says it’s wrong?
That’s the difference here. The difference between acknowledging everyone sins and that we all need grace, forgiveness and to seek repentance and the flip side of that coin saying that sin is acceptable.

http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

Agreed.
http://twitter.com/robbpaul Robb Paul

Being addicted to porn is willingly living in the sinful nature of man. Addictions can be broken, the reason they are not is due to people not trying hard enough. I’ve been there, I know… very few people have ever been addicted the way I was. I was always WILLING. And preaching against porn but doing it in secret is hypocritical.

As I said though, I don’t know how you act on homosexuality without it being sin.

There are many “sins” we act out daily without shame or remorse and that we don’t acknowledge as sins.

Again, the point is, all of our sins put Jesus on the cross not just one or the other.

I am a conservative, I voted against gay marriage. I believe that being gay was not intended by God and is not of God…

But I believe His GRACE is Sufficient.

http://www.facebook.com/rogue.logan.3 Eddie Dee

Robb, are you saying that one sin is less or more than another? …I personally believe that anyone of us can be actively pursuing God and His will for our lives and still be struggling with our sins.

http://twitter.com/beautifulove116 Lauren Elizabeth

“God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality.”

This statement breaks my heart because I have seen friend find true victory over this lifestyle. And I’ve seen some wrestle with it for years but choose to battle their lust and live in purity. The fact is, we all have lust in our hearts. Mine is no different than yours.

And God does give victory over our lusts.

But on the responses from both sides on this whole issue, the harsh and hateful language needs to stop. “A gentle answer turns away wrath but a harsh word stirs up strife.”

Michelle Yon

Agreed.
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thank you, Lauren. I appreciate your heart (didn’t mean to break it). By victory I meant change in orientation. How one chooses to live with their orientation is another question.

http://twitter.com/kendoanything ken dorsey

Thank you for this post! I believe that we are moving in a direction where more dialogue can happen in a very open forum about this topic. I know God loves. I know that all of God’s wrath towards sin was unleashed on Jesus at the cross. I know that I want every opportunity to love as many people that think and believe differently as I do. If we all love Jesus then we can leave the rest up to him when we get to heaven. I do not want to compromise my influence over principle when I could be someone’s answer!

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Ken! Yes!

Joe

Great video on this subject by the whosoevers http://youtu.be/dXI1dzu_Suk
http://twitter.com/mdwilliams1988 Matthew

My thoughts are in response to this quote:
“God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality.”

My quick response is: define “victory.” Now to flesh it out a little bit.

I think we make a mistake if we define victory over any given sin as a removal of the inclination toward that sin. Take, for instance, one of my chief sins – gluttony. To have victory over gluttony doesn’t necessarily mean that I will never again have a desire to abuse or overindulge in food. It could simply mean that I turn my back on that inclination, strong though it be. For me, gluttony is something that I will probably never escape the temptation toward. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t have victory over it.

http://twitter.com/mdwilliams1988 Matthew

[had to start a new one due to disqus problem]

I believe that any sin could be inserted in my statements in place of gluttony. The slight difference with homosexuality is that “removal of the inclination” would be interpreted as “becoming straight.”

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thank you for seeking to clarify, Matthew. By victory I meant changing orientation to straight. My reason for saying that was to dispel the myth that orientation can be changed. How one chooses to live with their orientation is another question, but my intent was to say it’s not a matter of being made straight.

natalie0118

Wow. I really appreciated this thoughtful, heartfelt response. Thanks for the platform Carlos and H.B.. thanks for the heart.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks, Natalie. Bridge formed

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

This conversation is (by a mile) the best, most sane dialogue on this issue I have ever seen. I attempted to tackle this on my blog yesterday, and the conclusion I came up with is that the church is reaping what it has sown in this area for decades. Homosexuality has been the target of opportunity for evangelicals for years, and now that the gay community is attacking the church because “one of us” preached a sermon 20 years ago that calls their way of life sinful, many in the evangelical community are trying to position themselves as innocent victims.
We are not.
Forget that the basis of the “anti-Louie” argument is preposterously flawed. Forget that he is one of the most socially minded preachers on earth. Forget how you personally feel about gay people. (Here comes a cap tip to Acuff with a level 10 Jesus Juke)
How would Jesus treat gay people? Is it consistent with how the church treats them? I don’t mean YOUR church. I mean THE Church. Big “C.” All of us as a whole. Would he condemn, shout, fight, argue, debate, or send them to “Resexualization classes?” Or would he love, honor, protect, encourage and eat a big meal with them? We all know Jesus would do the latter, because let’s be honest- Jesus knows the gays throw one hell of a dinner party.
Jesus treated the churchy folks during his life the way churchy folks treat the gays during ours.
Just sayin.

- k@ren

“Jesus treated the churchy folks during his life the way churchy folks treat the gays during ours.”
Great point!
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Good stuff, Virgil. What’s your blog?

http://www.facebook.com/vprichardson Virgil Richardson

Hey, thanks!
nextstopnineveh.wordpress.com

Enjoy!

http://twitter.com/justbrendap Brenda P

Thanks for sharing this post, Carlos. I think it’s absolutely ridiculous to have this conversation without people from both sides. I have the feeling that we are never going to find a nice, neat resolution to this issue, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take the time to wrestle with our questions and beliefs.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks, Brenda. Grateful for a seat at the table. You speak wisdom. Maybe it’s not about who’s right and who’s wrong. Maybe it’s how we love.

Ryan

I’m not a “heterosexual” Christian. I am a Christian. Can we just drop the “prefix”? I feel it gets used to incite a response… When we call ourselves a “gay” Christian… what does that mean?

To me, this is about identity. We are either people who are trusting in Jesus’ work for us and in us, or we are not. A key part of trusting His work for us and in us is a growing obedience to His word. So, if someone is “born” gay… that identity gets shed, when they get “reborn” in Christ. No doubt there will be attractions and complications, this is all of our fight against our own sin(s) – but in Christ – that doesn’t define. The new identity does. And, living out that identity in obedience to Christ and His word will bring God glory.

ragamuffinsoul

OK. She is a Christian who is gay…

http://jennyrain.com/ JennyRain

Thank you! Or even better… she is my friend and I love her

http://www.facebook.com/jrleimer116 Jesse Robert James Leimer

The problem is that people see a contradiction in that you cannot adequately love someone else if you disagree with their lifestyle and that you cannot disagree with someone’s lifestyle if you truly love someone. I believe that both the Christian and secular community needs to realize that any individual is capable of loving any other individual regardless of their lifestyle choice. In regards to being a homosexual Christian I do view it to be paradoxical, yet I have heard of homosexual Christians working through their homosexuality just as anybody would work through any other sin. But I do stand firm on the fact that unrepentant sin is a hindrance to one’s relationship with Christ. For example the rich young man sought to experience spiritual growth. Jesus said the only way to do so was for him to give away all of his possessions. That rich young man believed Jesus in his heart, but did not repent of his “greed” if that is what one may call it. But would you say that his unrepentant sin made him unworthy of salvation? No, for Jesus says in the next sentence that what is impossible with man is possible with God. God’s grace is based solely on the fact of placing one’s allegiance in Christ. Although I believe that one’s homosexual actions are detrimental to one’s spiritual growth and health, I do not believe that it separates them from Christ.

Sincerely,
A Canadian Pentecostal Bible College Student

ragamuffinsoul

thanks for the comment
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks, Jesse.

hballaman

Thanks, Carlos, for the platform to share! Very cool to be part of a respectful conversation on this subject. Two things:
1. Giving credit to the blogger I quoted: http://extraordinary-ordinary.net/2012/11/09/an-open-letter/
2. I’ll be reviewing & responding to comments tonight/tomorrow. I definitely want to join the convo, but have other commitments today.

haemin

Thank you for your candor and grace. It was encouraging and enlightening to read this interview, and it challenges me to love the people around me with more purpose and intent – regardless of their faith, beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. Thank you again for your words!

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

The bridges forming in this conversation make me smile.

Wes

Really appreciate the candor and honesty of H.B. I agree with her on most every point she makes. However, the statement “God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality” is neither true nor life giving to the gay community. I’m grateful to have been a part of a church for the last 10 years that welcomes people of all areas of struggle with sin and who believes deeply in the power of God to change the human heart. I’ve watched him do that for me in areas of anger, lust, pornography, and even abusive tendencies towards my spouse. I’ve seen him save my marriage and allow me to experience intimacy with him in ways I never could have dreamed possible had I surrendered to defeat in the areas I am most prone to wander in. And I’m grateful to know and call friends many individuals who walked in the doors of our church admitting that they were gay or lesbian who I now see walking in victory over those struggles and leading others to confess, repent and put to death daily the sinful urges within them. Some of them have gotten married and have children today. Others are walking faithfully as single men and women pursuing purity in all the ways they should. None of them would say that they are “cured” of those urges, but each of them is putting those urges to death daily as I pray I do with my urges towards sin. To say that this is not happening or not possible is to put oneself in the company of Sarah when the angels told her should would have a baby and she laughed. I struggle daily to believe that God can change me and am prone to laugh him off in thinking that I will never struggle with my temper or never struggle with lust again. But He’s changing me. Philippians 1:6 is my hope and I believe is the hope for every Christian who struggles with homosexuality as well.

H.B. was right to suggest that her gay friends befriend an evangelical and evangelicals befriend homosexuals. I would encourage her to take her own advice and befriend someone like my friend Leonard or Kathy or Don or Michael who are walking in the freedom and light of their identity as a child of God who has been set free from the destructive vices of homosexuality. Would love to make that introduction if you’re interested. Praying we stop short changing an all-powerful God by failing to trust that He is ALL-powerful.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thank you, Wes. By victory I meant change in orientation. I appreciate your comments and agree that God can do anything.

Natalie W.

I definitely appreciate this post, and the bravery that it takes to be open and honest about this issue. I personally have a difficult time stating where I stand when it comes to homosexuality issues, but the one stance that I do have is that no matter someone’s orientation, chosen or not, we are called to love them. I don’t think that it is up to us to decide whether someone is in the right or in the wrong, as that is not what Jesus calls us to do. It is so easy to get caught up in judging others or thinking we know what is best, and I think it just gets too complicated. I think that Jesus made it pretty simple when he said to first love God, and then to LOVE others as we love ourselves. I know that love isn’t always as simple as that, but I also don’t want to forget the importance of those words by being blinded by judgement and hate. Thanks Carlos and H.B.! Here’s to hoping that the future will be one filled with love and not judgement.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Natalie! Yes! Well said.

http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

I’ve left some comments here and I don’t want to leave anything up to the imagination on my beliefs so here we go:

First of all, I love this article mostly because the interview is with someone who is gay and claims to be a Christian. Most discussion that I see is on ‘homosexual marriage’ which is an entirely different set of circumstances. I usually stay out of it, and have a hope that all Christians do – I’ve long held the belief that Christians should not be in the business of attempting to keep sinners from sinning.

Now, the reason I am so apt to comment on a post like this is because I feel very strongly that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that we, as self-proclaimed Christians, should be challenging one another in an effort to further one another’s journeys. I believe that many groups of Christians do not ask themselves what they are doing wrong, but instead find ways to twist scripture to best represent what they believe ‘in their hearts’ to be ‘right’.

Most important part: Being a Christian is much more than calling yourself a Christian, going to church every week, praying, reading your bible, etc. The Bible is to be used as a tool to see if we are in fact what we claim to be. This doesn’t mean making lists and figuring out if we are doing everything that we ‘ought’ to be doing but if we are what we claim to be, we should be seeing evidence. I’m not saying that’s what this post or H.B. is attempting to do, but it should be said in these types of conversations in an effort to lead those that are looking to the right path.

Paul says, “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
http://www.mohan37.com/ mohan37

This isn’t very helpful, but I came here in great interest thinking that said “Gigolo Benediction” before realizing what you were talking about.

Freddie was asking me about this last night. I think it’s probably good he bowed out to avoid the distraction. We’ve screwed this all up so much that it’s only fair we have some awkward and “unfair” moments while we figure it out.
Got a piece at POTSC today about Cory Booker’s gay opinon piece. So many voices and viewpoints … sigh.
http://twitter.com/ChrisWHill Chris Hill

It’s so super weird that posts about other types of sin don’t get this much attention or stir up as much emotion in people.

http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

Culture. It’s a mainstream “battle” (or the illusion of one) being fought at the moment. People are going against the grain and others are pushing back. We will see the same thing with murder when the Hunger Games start IRL
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Right on, Chris.

CJ

First, I want to let everyone know that I’m a Christian, a worship leader, and I have lived with same sex attraction my whole life.

I absolutely love this post! I love how it presents both sides and how we all need to listen to and love each other! HB offers incredibly wise perspectives! Take heart.

In addition to same sex attraction, I’ve also lived with many other personality traits that seem to be warned against in Scripture. I’m still not sure if I was born with these tendencies due to my sin nature or if they developed in me due to my environment during my childhood. I lean toward the possibility that it is a combination of both. While there are only a few who know of my attraction, the Christians that do, have accepted and loved me with open arms. It is a testament to where the church has come and I am so grateful!

Regardless, I’ve never been one to refer to myself as “gay” much the same as I don’t refer to myself as a “theif” (even though I’ve stolen things before). My identity is not wrapped up in what I do or have done, but rather, WHO I AM. I see myself as a child of God, created in His image, redeemed by the grace of Jesus, and a fallible human whom the Holy Spirit is renewing and refining every day. There are days that I am victorious and there are days that I fail, but I’m thankful for God’s forgiveness.

My prayer is that others who have same sex attractions see themselves for who they really are not in what they do. Those who do begin to realize that when their Christian friends share with them what Scripture has to say about homosexuality, they’ll understand that they aren’t bashing THEM; they are urging them to work toward the holiness that’s described in the the Bible. I know, we can use the “Plank in your own eye” argument, but Scripture also says that “iron sharpens iron”. If we waited until we were all perfect to help a brother grow in the likeness of the image of God, we’d all be dead.

The problem arises when we don’t see the Bible for what it is; the go-to resource for discovering God’s moral standard. According to the Bible I read, there is right and wrong; and to me, it’s pretty clear that homosexuality is one of those things that God sees as immoral. Unfortunately, we’ve begun to set our own moral codes and so anything that’s contrary to what makes us feel good is obsolete and old-fashioned. Because of this, conservative Christians who try to share what Scripture says are bigots and “haters”.

Oh Lord! Help us!

http://twitter.com/robbpaul Robb Paul

Love this!
http://twitter.com/jeremygower Jeremy Gower

Perfect. I can’t say much more except that I can tell only through this one post that God has and will do great things through you. Perfect.
http://www.mustardseedyear.com/ Jason Wert

VERY well said.
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks, CJ. I agree, most Christians want to help and mean well. But their words and actions may mask their love.
joanpball

The challenge is not just what Christians say, but how they say it. I sat with the woman who started the Queer Emergent movement and made clear to her that I continue to wrestle with the scriptures around homosexuality as I do many scriptures that do not hold up against my own sense of right and wrong. I told her that I would love to say those scriptures just don’t matter, or that they were true to another culture, but that I could not. Instead, I told her that I would continue to wrestle more with these scriptures if I were lesbian myself and that I could suspend my uncertainty without endorsing or contemning her behavior as I prayed for further insight and guidance on the matter. I did not set my own moral code, nor did I condemn hers. I respected her journey, acknowledged that it is not my job to fix, change or convince her and relied on the Holy Spirit to propel her forward however that might manifest in the future. We remain friends today. All to say that sharing what the scripture says is not what makes people think some Christians are bigots and haters. It is Christians who indeed ARE bigots and haters that create that notion and become stumbling blocks to many people–which is its own sin.
Steve

CJ, I submit that your own moral code exceeds by far “gods moral standard”. The bible records more immoral acts by this “loving” god than most christians realize. For instance, in 2 Kings 2:23-24, god sends two bears to maul to death 42 boys for calling a prophet names. I question whether this really happened, as I question the validity of most of the bible. But lets assume bible accounts are accurate. Is this response moral and good, CJ. Yes or No? And do you condone slavery as the bible does? Your god is responsible for more deaths than any being ever known. And answer this. If you had the power to stop a gunman from killing children in their own school, would you? I suspect that you would, every time. That makes you more moral than this being you serve and worship. Your god wouldn’t and didn’t. You god is all knowing, all powerful, and supposedly good, and yet stands by and allows this and many other atrocities to occur. This makes your god A. a monster or B. nonexistent. Oh, I know some may say there’s option C. where god doesn’t cause these things and evil men have free will and on and on. Sorry, that’s a cop out. I was a christian for 25 years and came to realize that the bible god is inconsistent with reality. Why do you believe what you believe? What evidence can you present to me that will convince me I’m wrong?

CJ

Steve, These are great questions and ones that every person should ask themselves, whether they are a Christian or not. You’ve asked me, so I will answer; not with the intention of trying to convince you that you are wrong but simply because you asked. I could never change your mind. Only God can do that. You will most likely see my answers as weak, but that’s how those who live by faith are typically perceived.

The God of the Bible is a Spirit, so there’s no way we could ever make Him fit into our box of human reality. The way I look at is that God’s ways are higher than human ways. I don’t understand them but I have faith and trust that He is good and that whatever He allows to happen is for His purpose and plan, which is WAY BIGGER than my human mind can comprehend. Your questions assume that God works under the same moral code as humans. I don’t think He does because He sees the bigger picture. I only see the present so I must trust His BIG plan, whether it fits into my definition of right and wrong or not.

From my perspective, If God stopped everything we humans see as “bad” from ever happening, everything would be perfect and we’d merely be His puppets. If God worked like that, He’d get criticized for being too controlling. I’m glad God gives me a free-will. Unfortunately, man is innately flawed and we will always gravitate towards selfish desires. That’s why we need Him…to save us from ourselves. Why do you believe option C is a cop-out?

I believe what I believe because I know that without putting my hope and trust in the God of the Bible and His son, Jesus, I’d be missing out on the greatest life that was ever planned for me both now and in the hereafter. I absolutely love my life and I know it’s way better than what it would have been like without Jesus.

Steve

CJ, thank you for responding. Your answer is about what I expected it would be. I didn’t ask you about god stopping every “bad” thing any of us might do. I asked you about one account from scripture and the recent school shooting. Please answer my questions. Is god killing 42 boys a moral and correct response for nothing more than calling a man baldy? Would you stop a man from shooting children at school if you had the ability? Why do you believe what you believe? Surely you have a reasons? All I ask is for somebody to produce evidence for the bible god, which till now I have yet to find. And your pat answer is a cop out because its a way to defend and justify why an all powerful being fails to intervene where he should. In my eyes, you’re no different than an abused spouse defending and giving excuses why the abuser is not to blame. “I love you. I love you so much, I want to lavish you with gifts. I want you to love me and if you don’t, I’m going to lock you in the basement and torture you.” If your daughters boyfriend said that to her, you get a restraining order. Yet its exactly what god says and you accept it as good and right? Don’t you see how insane that is? And if you’re so innately flawed, how are you able to know that gods way is the right way? I look forward to your response.

CJ

Steve, I wish I could answer your questions but I can’t answer for God because I’m not God. I’m a human.

No, in my own humanness, killing 42 boys is not moral. Yes, if I could stop a school shooting where innocent children would be killed, I would. But again, I don’t see God’s bigger picture as to why He allows certain things to happen.

If I were to go into why I believe what I believe, it would take days so let me start by giving you this link to look at. These articles are written by a radio show host I listened to while living in Detroit. They are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to proving Christianity and giving evidence for the faith I have in the God of the Bible. http://toptenproofs.com/articles.php At least read what’s on his website and let me know what you think. If it’s intriguing to you, he has more stuff available for a lot of different arguments against Christianity.

It’s not fair to compare my relationship with God with that of an abused spouse because in my relationship with God, there’s a third person involved…Satan. Yes, I’m innately flawed, but it’s because of Satan. Man didn’t start out that way. My personal belief is that Satan was part of God’s plan so that man could prove his love for his Creator. But I’m sure you’re asking, “Why would God be so mean as to give us a test that we just fail over and over again.” Unfortunately, man unleashed the power of Satan in this world when he turned his back on God to try something more desirable. When you love someone, doesn’t it make sense that you want that person to prove their love for you to make sure they’re going to stay committed? Allowing temptation that can make me unfaithful to Him is not God’s way of abusing me. God’s not going to force me love Him. It’s my choice. While it’s not a perfect analogy, I look at it more as a personal trainer who cares about me as a person and pushes me through the pain to achieve fantastic results in the end. But I have to make the choice to workout. During the process, I develop a bond with my trainer because I realize that even though he’s pushing me into the pain, it’s because cares about me and wants me to love myself, too.

I’m pretty sure I just opened a can of worms here, but I’m enjoying this dialogue. Thanks!

Steve

CJ, you correctly answered the questions as to the morality of mauling boys and doing nothing to stop a school shooting, then ruin your answer by adding “But again, I don’t see God’s bigger picture as to why He allows certain things to happen.” Any being whose grand plan includes killing children is a monster. It’s that simple. Its disturbing to me that actions you find reprehensible in humans, you (and by you I mean all christians) accept as good without question and even praise when god does the same things. I used to have that mindset and I’m amazed at how deluded I was. And in your trainer analogy, if you decide to not train, will the trainer lock you up and torture you forever? I looked at that resource you mentioned. The gist of the first article I looked at was christianity is true because, look! the bible is true. Circular logic, CJ and not very convincing. Aside from articles on christian apologetics, is there any real life evidence that shows why you accept the claims of the bible? If I can give a little background that might explain my skepticism. I was married for many years and, like you, experienced same sex attraction since childhood and was simply not attracted to my wife. For many years, I did everything humanly possible to relieve this very strong attraction. I prayed, confessed, sought counseling, support group, bible studies, you name it. I desperately wanted to love my wife as a husband should and asked god in despair to intervene and change me as I knew only he could. Well, after years and year of this, guess what happened. Nothing. I was no more attracted to her than before and the same sex attraction was as strong as ever. Finally, my wife divorced me. So, I finally came to realize that either, gods promises didn’t apply to me, or this god didn’t exist in reality. And the more I looked at the bible and its claims, the more unsubstantiated they became. And as I observe christians around me, I still have yet to see any real evidence that any of the bible claims are the least bit true. So, I’m listening.

CJ

Steve, First, I’m so sorry for what’s happened in your life and I don’t blame you for your skepticism. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to have faith in anything. The desire to know “why” burns inside every heart. As a human with an intellect, I want to know so many things but there are some things I just accept by faith. I don’t know WHY some animals kill themselves or their mate in the mating process, but they do. It doesn’t make sense to me but I’m not naive or deluded because I don’t know why.

If I choose not to train, I know the results before I ever start…a higher risk of heart disease, obesity, diabetes, etc. If I choose not to train, I”m the one that’s torturing myself, not my trainer.

Unfortunately, I don’t know why God allows some peoples’ orientation to shift and not for others. I’m sure you did all you could to try to change. I did, too! But I do have real life evidence that God is real. In the area of my same sex attraction, He has helped slowly increase my love and intimacy with my wife. That didn’t begin to change until we had been married for 18 years. For me, it was more of allowing God to help me see my wife in a whole new light. When I’m viewing her correctly who God made her to be, it increases my desire for her and less for the same sex. When this happens, our intimacy is better and more fulfilling than anything I’ve ever experienced with the same sex. God has not changed my DNA or made it so I never have same sex attraction, but it’s a process and it is diminishing.

Steve, I really hope you find the answers you’re looking for. I’m just not sure I’m the one who can answer them for you.

http://www.facebook.com/steve.cole.92775 Steve Cole

CJ, I’m glad your marriage is going well. If you want to credit god with your success, then ok.

Steve

CJ, let me add a though about free-will. Christians ask god to influence or override somebodys free will all the time. Have you ever prayed for a job for your self or someone else? You’re really asking god to influence the decision, or the free will, of some hiring manager to decide in your favor. So, are you saying its ok for god to influence somebody’s will to give you a job but not stop the killing of 20 children? To hold up free will as some sacred cow that god never touches is not a valid argument.

http://www.charlespeters.net/ charles peters

does this conversation really need to be had? it seems like a case of stupidity versus stupidity. no one is being fed to lions, this isn’t a hate crime, it’s not persecution. let’s save that language for actual persecution.

ragamuffinsoul

we could not talk about it forever. sure…

http://www.charlespeters.net/ charles peters

i feel like christians should actually be more quiet on this issue

jdgower

What we’re talking about (I think), it homosexuality in the context of Christianity – who else should talk about it? As for gay marriage or all things secular for that matter – I couldn’t agree more!

http://www.charlespeters.net/ charles peters

there’s my full thoughts on this subject. http://www.charlespeters.net/blog/2012/12/28/queen-james-bible/

http://twitter.com/Bsteven17 Brad Robertson

I need to understand your reasoning for “Christians should actually be more quiet on this issue”… What issue? Homosexuality as a sin? Because it’s not an “issue” it’s a reality, and one that people struggle with and face every day. Talking about it creates open communication, it connects people to people, and it allows for understanding and love and grace to win out. Talking is a good thing.

BrinaHarwood

Los – I’m not sure if this is the place to put this, but after reading an apology from Sammy Adebiyi on Prodigal Magazine’s site to the LGBT community, I had an idea. Hoping you are interested in getting involved.

http://brina-harwood.blogspot.com/2013/01/apologetics-all-around.html
http://www.facebook.com/Battershell Matthew Battershell

“God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality” and “Reparative therapy does not work” seems to be quite biased and opinionated statements. I do not see facts or testimony backing these statements up. However, Exodus International (http://exodusinternational.org/about-us/mission-doctrine/) has amazing testimonies of people leaving the lifestyle and being set free.

Any sexual issue or addictive behavior(whether that be lust, pornography, homosexuality) is EXTREMELY hard to change – even impossible! – without the surrender to Christ and the Holy Spirit. And that surrender can take a lifetime of fighting and struggle and battle but GOD DOES GIVE THE VICTORY!

1 Cor. 15:57 “But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Cor. 2:14 “But I thank God, who always leads us in victory because of Christ.”

Gal. 5:1 “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do
not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”

1 Jn. 5:4 “This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith”

Rom 7:24-25 AMP “O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?

25 O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord!

Romans 13:14 “Let the Lord Jesus Christ be as near to you as the clothes you wear. Then you won’t try to satisfy your selfish desires”

Romans 8:31 AMP “What then shall we say to [all] this? If God is for us, who [can be] against us? [Who can be our foe, if God is on our side?]

{I may add, if God be FOR the Christian who struggles with the Flesh – we all do – then why say God does not give the victory?}

Liz

http://vimeo.com/6344577 -> My pastor allowed members of our church an opportunity to share their experiance and victory – a great watch! (Gateway Church Austin, TX)

I agree with you on her statements :/ I will say the Gay community is very much for you being able to love who you want, however alot of times if a gay person chooses to live the straight lifestyle – they are not as accepting…

http://www.facebook.com/Battershell Matthew Battershell

Thanks Liz! It is very true, may the Church never compromise Christ’s love but also never compromise Christ’s POWER! You know, Grace is not forgiveness. Grace is the power of God to CHANGE us into His likeness.

joanpball

I think the millions of people all over the world that get sober through 12 step programs might disagree with your assessment of overcoming addiction. I myself got sober more than 7 years before I became a Christian. Very important for Christians to remember that people are overcoming, serving, sacrificing and otherwise acting moral in the world without Christ. I know it doesn’t fit in with much of the rhetoric taught in the church today, but it is true. Acknowledging that fact requires us to dig deeper to truly understand what is different about a Christ followers.

http://www.facebook.com/Battershell Matthew Battershell

Being a leader for years in 12 Step programs I would ABSOLUTELY disagree with you. The first step is admitting POWERLESSNESS and coming to a “High Power” but as Christians, we know this only to be CHRIST!

You can be a dry drunk or jump addictions and keep the cycle going. The issue is a dark, sinful heart – only Christ frees us and gives victory but we must submit and become slaves of Christ. It is for freedom that Christ set us free! Gal 5:1

joanpball

I am not sure what organization you are involved with, Matthew. The original 12 steps as conceived by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob does not have leadership, nor does it require members to accept or even discuss Jesus. I know that it would be more theologically convenient for us to believe that God cannot work in such a place, but he does. Every day. And people are profoundly changed. I am happy that you have found what you need wherever you are. But 12 step programs were working to help people break the chains of addiction long before Christian organizations embraced and rewrote the steps to fit their existing beliefs. We Christians do that a lot. Find programs and processes that are already working and claim them as Christian. (micro finance is another excellent example of this).

Steve

Matthew, nice sounding words, all these scriptures you throw around. Unfortunately meaningless and empty. I was once married and lived with same sex attraction…big time and was not attracted to my wife. I prayed, surrendered, confessed, confessed some more, sought counseling, support group for many years with absolutely no change. I cried out to god in despair and hopelessness and begged him to do in me what I knew I could never do in myself. Still no change. Even after getting divorced, I tried to live out my faith, carrying the shame and guilt of being a failure. Failure as a christian, husband, man. I finally came to the conclusion that all I had believed was a lie. I said in an earlier post that the more I consider the claims of the scripture, the more unsubstantiated they are. Maybe others have had different outcomes. I doubt it. Do some more digging into these so called ex-gay ministries. I’m sure you’ll find that the failure rate is quite higher then the leaders of these groups care to admit.
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

“Alan Chambers, the president [of Exodus International], declared that there was no cure for homosexuality and that “reparative therapy” offered false hopes to gays and could even be harmful.” NY Times article from July 6, 2012 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/us/a-leaders-renunciation-of-ex-gay-tenets-causes-a-schism.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Matthew, the president and founder of the very organization you are promoting has declared the homosexuality cannot be changed. Is that evidence enough for you?

Liz

“Why isn’t God making gay people straight? It’s not a matter of ability. He could change someone’s sexual orientation. But He isn’t. And it’s not a matter of gay Christians having unrepentant hearts. Most gay Christians I know spent years begging God to make them straight. But God is not doing it. Reparative therapy does not work. God is not giving gay Christians victory over homosexuality. Why? I don’t have the answer.”

http://vimeo.com/6344577 <– I go to Gateway Church in Austin, Texas where No Perfect People Are Allowed – but her comment or statements above of how God is not giving victory – here are some people testifying to victory. Los – your friend's comments sadden me…
JB

As someone who is striving to follow Christ but is also gay, all of this talk is the reason that people such as myself grow up in a state of constant fear, confusion and skepticism. I have know since i was very young that I was attracted to men. I have never been sexually abused, or any of the other stereotypical reasons some give to “explain” homosexuality. I was raised in the church and prayed everyday that God would make me straight, because I didn’t want these feelings. I prayed that for 17 years, and I finally got my answer; No. I heard from God that there wasn’t anything wrong with me and that I was loved. Do I have a verse to back that up? No. Did I verbally hear from God? No, that would have scared me. I did however feel the holy spirits love and support. I’m not saying I have all the answers, but I am saying can we not all trust in the God of Love, and show his grace and mercy to everyone, even those that don’t “deserve” it in your eyes. Everyone has a story and I don’t think its within anybody’s judgement to throw their personal journey to the curb…and lastly, all the straight people commenting on how to just repent and move on, it’s not that easy, and it’s not anything you can understand. Make a gay friend and let them share their story. In Christ’s love – JB

http://www.facebook.com/Battershell Matthew Battershell

JB – I’ve been a Christian my entire life and for 30 years struggled with lust and attraction to the opposite sex (women). I, by God’s Grace, have remained a virgin, but according to Christ in Matt 5:27-30 have failed with lust (heart adultery).

Christ said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble,
gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part
of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

Now, I can look at that and say, “yup, I’ve committed heart adultery. Now what?” By faith, we are FORGIVEN through Christ’s sacrifice.

But you know what, God in His Grace is empowering me to OVERCOME my flesh and NOT STAY THE SAME. We know the Bible is clear in Gal. 5:17 saying:

“For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the
Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with
each other, so that you do not do what you want.”

As Christians, whether we struggle with lust, porn, homosexuality – we are called to repent, fight and RELY on Christ for the victory. Does Christ love us? Yes for Rom. 5:8 says:

“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Does Christ expect us to CHANGE and walk in NEWNESS? YES! For the scriptures say:

Gal 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do
not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Rom 6:1-2; 6-7
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? …For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

JB, you rock! Thanks for sharing your story. Brave. Vulnerable. Humble. I want to be your friend.

Michael Perry

I go to church. I pray. I am publicly pious. Please look at me because this the picture of someone who is going to heaven.

Dan

What? Nothing you said there gets you into heaven…

Michael Perry

I might add that I hate them nasty sinners. They are headed to hell.

Ryan Richardson

OK I’ll bite… Here is how I view it. Los (and I’m sure many others of you) has this friend H.B. that he cares for deeply. He obviously knows her well because he said that she has only come out to a couple of close friends (i.e. Carlos). Los values H.B. Equally H.B. values Carlos. I didn’t see anywhere in Carlos’ post that he agreed with her lifestyle (learned or not). I didn’t see anything in there about H.B. being unrepentant. All these hot button words get thrown in this debate faster than Cajun seasoning gets thrown in an Emril Lagassi recipe…

Look… the fact is that there is no where else I would rather my gay friends, drunk friends, adulterous friends, dancing friends and filp flop to church wearing friends be than next to me on a Sunday morning learning that there is a God that LOVES THEM.

Love is the answer people. Jesus himself said that! “The greatest of these is love.” Love people, show them Jesus, get out of the way.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks, Ryan. “Love people, show them Jesus, get out of the way.” Right on.

Matt

As you read this I ask that you do so humbly, just as I wish to humbly comment.

I (personally) like to look at the christian life as a journey in which we all end up to the end which is physical death. The bible says everyman is destined to die physically. (Hebrews 9:27)
In this life, no man has any place to entitlement under God. We are petty like Jesus’ disciples if we think we need a place of rank in His kingdom. We are called to be the least.
In saying this, I agree with alot of you that we should, on both sides as christians and a possible LGBT member just listen to one another and hold back the anger and pride that only hinder the truth being sought.
I believe that every sin, including homosexuality, is equal to itself. Sin, is sin. Lust can may be categorized into many counterparts like Lust for pre-marital sex (another topic), homosexuality, lust for self fulfillment rooted in self exaltation and pride…etc.
Personally, I struggle with a lust after sexual desires for the opposite sex. A sin, like any other, of which I am saved by the blood of Jesus.
My whole heart is committed now to following Jesus and humbling myself before God and man to say “I am nothing, God be my everything”. And God has released the wrestling grip of that lust from me. I am still subject to temptations and tests in the future, but I have come to the realization that because I find a my needs fulfilled in Jesus Christ…the fountain of life that never runs dry, It is much easier to overcome that lust daily because of the humility I have received by grace, through faith. Believe, this took years and it was only because of my stubbornness and unwillingness to conform fully to Jesus Christ that I could not overcome it. When facing it in the future, I look at a whole “different ball game” because Christ is my all, living by the spirit, God is my strength and I can overcome that temptation (by Christ, who lives in me, because it is not I who lives but Him).
This may be confusing for some to understand, but I believe break through from every sin is achievable, but not of ourselves. Jesus came to be our all, and the the Holy Spirit to be that presence within us to guide us through life. Not to make us perfect, but to keep us in grace, and humility, always having hope in salvation and always wanting to grow.

If you do not agree with me, that is great because I don’t want you to agree with me. I did not perfectly state this and I am not the author of truth. But every one of you, I ask that you would pray to God, and ask for Him to show you. But do this, with an expectation of faith that He will speak.
If nothing happens, well, you only wasted a couple of words in your life. But know you are in prayer.
http://www.facebook.com/Battershell Matthew Battershell

May I propose a simple question? What does the term ‘Christian’ mean?

I think with the hoopla of emotions, politics and redefinitions abounding in American culture, we have redefined our very Christianity in terms of: “What can God do for me?”

Let me break it down simply: we define a Christian as a person saved by the Blood of Jesus through faith, right? Maybe?

But wait a second! Would not that definition define the entire world? For the scriptures say:

“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.” 1 Peter 3:18

I think in the Greek, “All” means “All.” What I am trying to say is, Jesus did not die for Christians, He died for EVERYONE and atoned ALL SIN ever committed. This is what the Bible teaches. This is why when you sin today and tomorrow – as you surely will- Jesus does not climb back on the cross and bleed out for you. Or me.

So what is a Christian therefore, since Christ died for ALL PEOPLE? Are ALL people Christians? Certainly not! Are ALL people saved? Certainly not!

A Christian is simply a Christ follower who RECEIVES this free atoning Grace through Faith, ALLOWING God’s Holy Spirit to mold them into the person God COMMANDS: a HOLY, pure obedient person heeding the voice of Christ. For the scriptures say, “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:16

A Christian is not someone for whom Christ died: Christ died for All. A Christian is not a church-goer or even Bible reader or teacher. A Christian is not someone with religion.

A Christian is someone who becomes a slave of Christ – as Paul often defined himself. As Christ said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matt 7:21

If you are a Christian defined in terms of slavery, Christ is your master, not your politics, your feelings or your sexual desires. Again, Christ says, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” John 14:23

Being even more personal, Jesus said this: “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matt 12:50

So, to be a slave and lover of Christ, caring only about His will alone gets you closer to this definition of being ‘Christian.’

Notice I did not mention our works or ‘good’ deeds earning one’s salvation. Quite contrary. I’ve mentioned being SURRENDERED as a slave and giving up one’s works, deeds and strengths – for all our righteousness is as filthy rags. (Is 64:6)

And I’m pretty sure, if we cannot even let go of our personal opinions, sexual desires and striving, earthly ideals, Christ is not even our master. WE are our master. And that is why we are rather weak and confused in Christendom or should I just define it: endom, for Christ is not even in it!

So, let us return to surrendering our very broken, sinful lives to Christ. Victory comes much easier when we DIE to ourselves. (Have you ever witnessed a dead corpse sinning?) As Paul writes in Romans 6:1-2:

“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”

The promise of Christ is this: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” Matt 11:28

It is at the point of surrender – slavery to Christ – where we begin to see this rest and victory. This is at the foot of Christ’s cross, where we begin to be molded into becoming a Christian: a lifelong journey of complete slavery and death with the hope of a renewed eternal life hidden in Christ. “For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.” Col. 3:3

My friends, our only other option is total slavery, depravity and surrender to the World and own desires. It is here where we will NEVER see the victory the Lord so lovingly intends for us to experience.

Blessings to you all.
Joe Gormong

We cannot allow the culture to round off the edges of Christianity they find intolerable. What defines us? Jesus is Lord! Love EVERY sinner, hate EVERY sin
http://www.facebook.com/Ruuder Eric Ruud

Let’s keep this simple. Homosexuality is sin (Romans 1:26-27). Sin separates us from God. Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins bridges that gap when one repents. To repent is to ask forgiveness and turn from sinful ways. Jesus said in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” So I need to ask the lady in the article who claims she loves the Lord, “Then why do you continue to willfully live in sin?” As Christians we are commanded to love God and love others. But is allowing another who proclaims faith in Christ to continue to live in sin showing love to them. Jesus instructs us in Matthew 18:15-17 how to deal with an individual in the church who is living in sin.

I Corinthians 5:12-13 ‘What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?’ As Christians, we shall not judge those living in sin if they do not proclaim Christ as their savior. We must show them love and hope they come to a true relationship with the Lord and be changed through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The lady in the article states “The Church has actually changed its stance on homosexuality dramatically in the last decade.” Maybe HER church has, but God hasn’t. You are either living in the Spirit and following Christ Jesus, or you are living
in the flesh and living for your own desires. If you say you are in the middle (choosing what parts of the Bible you want to follow), you are lukewarm, and God spits you out (Revelation 3:15-16). Do not be fooled by the teachings of false leaders. The Word of God is the ultimate Truth. If you proclaim Christ as your Savior and you are living a sinful lifestyle (of any kind), your faith is not true.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Wow, keeping it simple requires a lot of words. My way of keeping it simple?
Matthew 22:36-40

http://twitter.com/bates_ben Ben Bates

Hey hb, I’m ben. Appreciate your honesty. Not everything is as simple as Christians want them to be. Sure it’s simple when you follow it with “I’m right.” I think these are very important convos to have. It has helped me for sure.

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks, Ben. I agree. The more I “debate” this issue the more I realize the answer is not in being right but in being loving.
Jesus never commanded us to have right theology. He commanded us to love. So, while knowing what you believe is important, loving others is absolutely essential.

http://twitter.com/Bsteven17 Brad Robertson

Are you so holy that you do not live in sin? I have a hard time believing that you don’t struggle with the temptation to sin on a daily basis. You quote 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 and yet, you are judging HB for what you consider to be a post admitting to living a sinful lifestyle. I don’t believe she ever says, “I have a gay partner” or “I am living in sin by partaking in relations with a woman”… because she didn’t. She merely gave a perspective from someone whose sin struggle is homosexuality. Does that automatically mean she’s living in sin? Not at all. Don’t be so quick to judge, that’s one of the things this interview addresses. Christians are too quick to assume that if someone admits they struggle with homosexuality, it means that they are in a relationship with someone of the same sex. I struggle with lust, but that doesn’t mean I am not following Christ as my Savior, or that my heart doesn’t yearn to beat that struggle daily. Some days I succeed, some days I don’t. The Church has changed it’s stance on homosexuality… and your right, God hasn’t. Because God never stopped loving homosexuals, or heterosexuals… so nothing’s changed. Guess all those words you wrote weren’t that simple, eh?

disqus_xW4H0EjnFX

http://blogs.christianpost.com/standing-in-truth/gay-people-dont-go-to-hell-for-being-gay-11886/
Mike Johnson

It’s important to define terms in any discussion, and HB may be defining gay as having
feelings of same-sex attraction and not necessarily the response to those feelings in the form of behavior or lifestyle, which we are morally responsible for. She says “The median belief is that being gay is not a choice, but that homosexual behavior should nevertheless be renounced.” If this median belief is HB’s belief, this will confuse the argument.
Rae-Ann

I am straight and I live at ground zero of the largest LGBT (etc ) community in Canada. I am also Christian, formerly Catholic.
All I know is to me, God IS Love.
The scripture is words on a page, passed from one human to another….do you follow Old testament? Or New? Which version of the bible is the true one? Does God only love Christians? What about Jews? Muslims?
God IS Love….its the humans who make it all so complicated
http://www.BradAndres.com/ Brad Andres

Thanks H.B. Thanks Carlos. Great thoughts!
exiledinelanco

whatever your life was before you met Jesus is the old life. He wants you to die to the old and become alive in Him. The current series at my Church is dealing with the term Christian. Something to ask ourselves. Am I a Christian or a disciple of Jesus? Two very different terms. Christian in the 1st century was a term used by outsiders as a derogatory term of insiders. Being a Christian is what one believes. Being a Disciple is what one actually does. Of course we are all in varying stages of our journeys and no one has it figured out. As long as we are walking with Jesus and desiring to grow closer in Him.

I love what just came in my inbox from Rick Warren….I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. John 12:24 (NIV)

When you think about your walk with Jesus, some days you may wonder, “Why is this so hard? I’m still struggling with so many problems. When will I finally get it right?”

In my journey as a pastor, I’ve learned spiritual growth is often like the growth we see in nature — the best fruit ripens slowly. In John 12:24, Jesus says, “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.” (John 12:24, NIV)

The problem is we tend to get impatient, so we dig up the seed to check the progress of its growth, and that slows down our growth! If you’re not seeing as much fruit as you’d like, don’t despair. Growth takes time.
http://twitter.com/Bsteven17 Brad Robertson

I’m a little behind here, because I don’t get online much over the weekends (strange I know). However, I’m very thankful for the openness and honesty in this post. For years I have wrestled with where the Bible stands on the “battle” between evangelicals and LGBT communities. I have some friends that are gay, and I love them no differently than my friends that are straight. I think you so eloquently state the true issue between the two parties, and that is that everyone is too busy yelling and screaming at everyone else, that there’s no time to listen and love. I wrote on a similar subject back during the “Chic-fil-A vs. LGBT” issue. ( http://musicalmindset-realnoimitation.blogspot.com/2012/08/wwjd-and-chic-fil-a.html ) Here’s the thing… I have a dear friend that I went to college with. We met at college, and as I got to know him… I started to realize that he was either gay and had not “come out” or he was at least struggling with homosexuality. We lived together for a year, I saw him during that year withdraw from the church. He was scared, he was afraid to come forward because even in our “Christian circle” of friends at college, it was largely conveyed that homosexuality was a sin unlike any other. Which isn’t true. A sin is a sin.. is a sin. I remember still when this guy decided to “come out” to us. I wasn’t in school anymore but one of my other friends called to let me know “that I was right about _______ all along”, the first thing I said was… I’m not glad I was right, but I’m glad he finally understands that we will love him regardless. I have prayed for him, I still pray for him, and not that he will necessarily “stop being gay” but that he would seek Christ, and invite Him back into his heart, and realize that people that are truly living for Christ will love him regardless of who he loves. As long as he is seeking the Lord, he’s my brother, and I will love him. Thank you again for sharing HB… this has truly been eye-opening. While I am not one to join political debates… I am so thankful that LG ducked out the way that he did, in grace. Not bashing the LGBT community, not going against his personal beliefs, not even calling out the Inaugural committee for wanting to stand up for the LGBT… He just simply said he wouldn’t speak on it, and they wanted to go a different way. There’s a peace about how it happened, and people need to respect both sides of this. Thank you again

Grace and Peace,
B

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Brad, thank you for sharing. “As long as he’s seeking The Lord, he’s my brother, and I will love him.” That’s beautiful, and that’s exactly my prayer. We may never resolve the theology of this debate, but that doesn’t preclude us from loving each other.

Matt

For several years our church published a magazine for our congregants, the May/June 2010 issue was title “Things We Don’t Talk About in Church” – Debt/Sexting/Suicide/Human Trafficking and yes Homosexuality – my friend and co-worker wrote this article on homosexuality and love what we wrote, esp, when he admitted it is hard and messy, but we all need to just “shut up and listen” – scroll down to page 30 and hopefully be challenge/encouraged – all of you won’t agree with everything written and that’s ok, but the Grace of God has to be the starting (and ending) point for all of us….

https://www.woodmenvalley.org/images/images_WVC/BOOK%20v2i3.pdf

http://hballaman.wordpress.com/ hballaman

Thanks Matt. That’s a great article. I love when he says, “make it personal.” The only way we will ever hope to find common ground is by getting personally involved. We have to be willing to see past the issue and look into the humiliated eyes of the person sitting across from us at the coffee shop (or dinner table, or church pew). We must let the grace and love of Christ lead.

Pingback: Louie Giglio Inauguration, Antigay & Homosexuality (Links)
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http://jennyrain.com/ JennyRain

How did I miss this post – thanks Los, and thanks HB for sharing your heart.

“[H.B.] – The biggest need on both sides is less shouting and more listening.”

YES! It not only hurts both sides… but the families on both sides…. the children of gay parents, sisters, brothers, cousins… the vitriol hurts all of us and it is SO damaging.

And there is so much for both sides to learn still. I’ve been the daughter of a gay father for 42 years – and yet – I read Andrew Marin’s book 2 years ago (Love is an Orientation) and it taught me so much about how to show respect to my dad and love him – things that even though he has always been my dad, I didn’t know I was unknowingly doing that might be hurting or distancing me from him.

For me – it seems like we draw a line in the sand for “Truth” or “right/wrong” more out of a protection for “self” – and this is exactly opposite to what we are supposed to be doing. Jesus risked living in the tension – the uncomfortable places, why aren’t we?

Carlos Whittaker

My Gay Christian Friend’s Response – The Giglio Benediction

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