Carlos Whittaker

Jul25

Dan Cathy And Chick-Fil-A Pissed Me Off

Posted by loswhit in Authenticity

Because he showed just how quiet I am about a subject that I believe will be the biggest the church will face in the next 10 years.
And whether or not I or you believe the same thing he believes…
At least he said something.
And he isn’t apologizing.
And my gay friends have said something too.
And they have not apologized.
And it makes me look like a coward.
And I hate that.

So here’s to learning something from Dan Cathy and Gay Americans.
Don’t hide behind the fabric of political correctness.
Rather…
Stand in front of the fabric of a country that allows us all the freedom to an opinion.
And give it when necessary but not just for the sake of giving it.
There is nothing worse than a preacher with a megaphone.
Relationship Relationship Relationship.

It’s better that way…
Los

http://www.recreationstation.blogspot.com Stephanie R.

Yes, Carlos! Thank you! I’m so thankful to live in a place where we are free to have opinions. I just hope people will remember that in all of these discussions.

http://www.milkshakesanytime.blogspot.com/ MMS

Yes! Let’s all fall in love with the First Amendment once again.

http://www.livingbydoubt.com Mitchell

Thanks for that, Carlos.

You always say exactly what I’m feeling. It’s good to know I’m not alone.
http://Joeyeverett.com Joey

I fear it is those who preach tolerance that are most intolerant of all. (just a side note… I’m eating some oreo’s and a chicken sandwich as I type this)
I love this blog!
http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

Hey Los,

I stand with Dan and his statements. And I know it’s not popular, but standing for a Biblical foundation and having a moral compass on the issue of marriage is not normally popular.

I know a few gay people, and i don’t hate them.
Just like I know the guy who looks at porn, and I don’t hate him.

But when it comes to a stance on the moral fabric of our country there has to be a standard of right and wrong.

And just like looking at porn is wrong/bad the same thing goes for homosexuality. The Bible takes a hard line stance against it.

As Matt Chandler says homosexuality is the ultimate rebellion against God, and it’s saying ‘God I know you created things this way…but I’m going to do it MY way.’

I don’t hate gay people. I love them, and want to see them reconciled back to Jesus.

The marks of a true believer is that when the Bible or God confronts sin in their life (no matter what it is) they repent of said sin, and strive to follow after what God wants for their life.

Let me know what you think.

Steve

Hey Caleb, guess what? I did repent, over and over and over. Repented and confessed and repented and confessed again. And strove to follow after what god wanted for my life. For over 25 years. After all that, I’m still gay. This is not as cut and dry as you like to make it. “Just turn to Jesus and repent….” I did and nothing happened. The cosmic joke is on me, apparently.

Deb

Steve, I’m not sure why I’m even posting other than to say your reply is stirring in my spirit to pray for you. Not because I am judging you but because I feel a tenderness for you. I believe there is freedom from anything that is at work in our lives that doesn’t line up our spirit with God’s. Praying He speaks His love and fresh revelation to your day. Praying clarity and peace to your soul. Praying as He leads….
http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

Steve-

First of all. I DO NOT HATE you (or gay people)

We all have desires/sinful natures. I have a desire to sleep with every hot chick i see, but that does not mean i should do it.

According to the scripture it is ‘cut and dry’ and i did not make it that way.

Romans 1:18-29 is very ‘cut and dry.’

But we have gotten to such a place in our culture that we view scripture as stupid and outdated, unless it makes us feel good.

I’ll be honest. There are parts of the Bible that I don’t like, but that does not mean they are not applicable in my life.

The joke is NOT on you.
There are ways to change things. But there has to be a willingness to do some hard things.

My struggle for many years was porn. (which God condemns Matt 5:28) I got hooked in with a group of Godly men who had a desire to see me reconciled back to Jesus. It was process. I screwed up, but Gods forgiveness was always readily available.

I would suggest that you get connected in with a Godly group of men who are NOT judgmental, but rather have your best interest at heart. Trust me there are groups out there that do this.

Please don’t think I’m a homophobe because I’m not. I know I don’t know you, but I can tell you this much. I genuinely care about you.

Steve

Caleb,
Way ahead of you Caleb. Did the christian counseling, AND support group. For many years. To no real affect. I don’t think you’re homophobic, Caleb. Just naive, like I used to be. And oh how I despaired that my “faith” wasn’t strong enough. That I didn’t believe enough or want to change bad enough. The immense damage that does can’t be overstated, you guys. I finally wised up and had the courage to admit that jesus is the myth that he is. Get your head out of the clouds. Being attracted to others of the same sex is NOT a choice. And to suggest it is is an extremely ignorant and arrogant statement to make. Pray for me if you like, but I know what a colossal waste of time it is. Do something more productive with your time.

Sarah

Steve,

I am praying that Jesus would make himself known to you today. I pray that his voice will be unmistakable and a million times louder than all the lies that are coming your way. I pray that he will put his loving arms around you and let you know just how much he loves you. The beautiful thing about Jesus is that he has already paid it all for us and we don’t have to do anything but have a willing heart and he will do the changing. Steve I hope you find your way back to him because he is just waiting for you to turn around so he can hold you!

Steve

Really Sarah? You posted “we don’t have to do anything but have a willing heart and he will do the changing.” Did you not read ANYTHING I just wrote. You don’t think I had a willing heart? Are you serious. This is what I”m talking about with the simplistic, naive answers. The reality is I gave jesus a chance for over 25 years to no avail. I might as well have prayed to Santa Clause. Save the delusions to somebody who doesn’t know better.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

You said it was not a choice…so I’m guessing you mean that some folks are born that way?

#1. Physiologically we are not designed to be homosexual. We are designed to procreate (i don’t need to go into a science lesson) We are designed with the parts we have by a creator for a purpose.

#2. IF we were born that way…it’s still not a valid reason.
We are all born sinful. There has to be some type of responsibility on our half.

The ‘i was born that way’ card would not hold up in court if someone wanted to bang their 10 year old sister, or a dog. (and yes there are people who are out there who say they were born to that way)

It seems to me that you’ve have made your decision.

Steve

Really Caleb? That’s the best you can do? Sex is only for having children. And you’re putting activity between two consenting adults on the same level as child abuse or sex with animals?
So, elderly couples, or infertile couples really shouldn’t be allowed to have sex? They have no reason to, really. I’m very disappointed, Caleb.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

Steve-

You for some reason want to draw me into some sort of a debate over this.

It’s pointless.

I find the sin of Sodom to be wrong from not only a Biblical stand point, but also from a cultural stand point.

You don’t.

I mean you’ve stated that you find Jesus to be some type of ‘Santa’ So in reality we have nothing further to discuss.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

Steve-

I will say that I support your freedom and right to say and do what you want.

We live in a nation that allows us to say what we want (for now) and I would fight and die for you to be able to say and do what you want.

Nevertheless, I have the same right to say and stand for my beliefs and so I guess what has to happen here is that you and i will agree to disagree.
eric

Sin of Sodom?? Caleb, no offense, but I’d suggest you study the Bible instead of just read it. It breaks my heart that we Christians often stop after a surface-level reading of scripture. Also, Caleb claims to no longer be a Christian, so we can’t hold someone accountable to standards or morals they don’t claim for themselves. Caleb obviously feels attacked and let down by the Church, and I’m not sure you’re helping any.
eric

Sorry Caleb, I meant to type Steve in my final comment.

Sarah

Steve,

I’m sorry that you are hurting. I’m also sorry that you feel like Jesus is the same as Santa Clause. If you get nothing else from this conversation I hope you understand there are Christians out there who will love and accept you. You are a wonderful creation and I hope that someday soon you will know the God who loves you just as you are. I hope that you have a wonderful day!

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

My apologies
Scripture has rebuked me.

Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
Ezekiel 16:49

So I take back the phrase ‘Sin of Sodom’

http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

Hey Steve…

Would it be alright if I asked a question?

I’m wondering when you went through the counseling and stuff what you had hoped the end result would be. It might sound like a stupid question but I truly think that talking with you about it might help to shed some light for me.

Thanks in advance for your time and your response.

Steve

Sure Shayne.
When I went through counseling and so forth, I was married at the time, had been married since ’92. There had always been sexual problems in the marriage. Bottom line, I was not sexually attracted to my wife. I was heavily attracted to men. Add to the mix porn use since early teen’s. All this got disclosed to my wife, so my hope in the counseling, group, prayer and god was for the attraction to go away and be replaced with a healthy “godly” sexual attraction to my wife. This would require a deep, profound change within myself and I knew there was no way in hell I could bring this chance in myself. Fast forward through several years of counseling, group, endless prayer and then needed change was remarkably absent. I was no more attracted to my wife than when I started. She couldn’t take it and filed for divorce. This was 4 years ago this month. So all the crying out to god, and I did plenty of times in despair, to change me, resulted in nothing. I know you mean well, and have to remember you still cling to “faith”. Sorry, ya’ll, at the end of the day, there’s no reasonable evidence for it. the correct response to my story is “I’m sorry it turned out this way, man”. Adding your platitudes helps not the least little bit.

Steve

And if I may clarify, I am gay and I do seek to date men. For those who may be thinking “A-ha. He couldn’t wait to get divorced so he could embrace his sin.” I sought a celibate, godly life for 3 years after I got divorced. I no longer see the failure of my marriage as my failure. Its a god failure. As stated before, I looked to god to do in me and for my marriage what I knew I couldn’t do. And not just for me. There was a hurting, desperate godly woman being affected as well. So after the dust cleared, I started a new life, celibate. I continued in group, had accountability partners and everything. Then the truth that my faith really had no basis in reality set in. This savior I sought and lived for simply wasn’t there.
I realize that those following this who believe have no choice but to fault me. Not in a hateful way. The two options are 1. I failed or 2. God failed. Unless you’re ready to critically and honestly challenge the object of your faith, you have n choice to choose 1. I just hope I get one of you to be careful how you respond to others in similar situations. I’m certainly not alone.

http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

Steve,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and respectful response.

I appreciate the unbearable pain it must have caused you and your ex-wife and I in no way mean to just casually blow that off.

I’d like to talk more with you about this, an honest and open discussion…no agenda. If you would agree to enter into this discussion with me, please e-mail me at shnwlch38@gmail.com.

Thanks again Steve. I hope to hear from you soon.
Ann Gardner

Steve, I am so sorry to read about all the hurt, pain and misunderstanding that you received from people in your church. Please accept my apology from a God believer who does not believe that you chose a life of pain and supports legal protection and non-discrimination for all. I believe in a good loving God whose heart aches for you . My heart aches for you too. Thank you for being so honest on this blog.

Steve

Thank you, Anne.
http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

We live in America Ann. FREEDOM OF SPEECH is something that is a right of everyone (gays, and straits)

It concerns me when I hear people say ‘legal protection’ because you start to walk a dangerous path that will not end well for any of us.

I support Steve’s right to say and think what he wants.

I would pray he would do the same for me.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

Just so you know.

One of my best friends is a HARD CORE atheist. I think his horrifically wrong, he thinks the same about me.

But i’d take a bullet for him.

I don’t have to agree with you to be your friend.

http://eternallizdom.blogspot.com Liz

I don’t think there are only 2 options. I think there is at least 1 third. 3. You can be gay and be loved by God as you are and love God with your whole heart. I don’t believe being gay is a sin, I don’t believe it is a choice, and I don’t believe it separates you from God. I believe God’s love is available to all people. I’m not going to try and convince you that you need to find Jesus or open your heart and that you will somehow change and become what you think you need to become.

Instead, I’d invite you to come to know people who are strong in their Christian faith and who also believe passionately that a person’s sexuality doesn’t determine their faith or their relationship with God. I obviously don’t know you or where you live but I’d be happy to try and help you find a loving and supportive and open and accepting community if you were interested. And if you happen to be in my area, I’d love to meet you and embrace you a child of God.

Steve

Liz,
thank you for your concern and openness. I have two cousins who are gay, happily partnered and still maintain their faith. I know it’s possible to reconcile being homosexual and christian. Just not an option for me.

MJT

I’m sorry it turned out this way ,man.

Steve

MJT, correct answer!! Thank you.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

By the way. I’d still hang out with you, and go a LOS concert! Even though i disagree with you.

Steve

Thanks, Caleb. I’d hang with you, too.

http://www.meetbrentdouglas.com Brent D

Steve,
Out of honest curiousity; why are you here at Los’ site, then? Seems as if it goes against everything you now feel about God. I’m not trying to get you to leave or even to consider it. Just wondering what your motivation was/is.

Steve

Brent, I visit from time to time to see what you’re saying about current events and issues such as this and I chime in when I think I can add a different perspective.

http://saidahali.tumblr.com Saidah

Hey, Steve? Guess what? You’re totally fine just the way you are. You’re a human trying to live fully and not make the world a worse place. Which is really as good as it gets. There’s nothing “wrong” with you. You don’t need to “repent.” You’re not going to “hell.” As a matter of fact, I kind of like you. You’re kind of badass for speaking up in the first place. Anyone who feels the need to have a opinion about your personal life can just go way back and sit down.

Los

Fat people, Skinny people, Mean people, Corrupt people.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

What does that mean?

http://www.meetbrentdouglas.com Brent D

I think he’s pointing to the fact that sin isn’t necessarily just those things that are taboo or ‘really bad’. Gay, porn addict, fat, skinny, mean or corrupt.

“Don’t judge others just because they sin differently than you do”, as I’ve read.

http://www.reflectionofgrace.wordpress.com Brandi

This entire conversation makes me want to puke all over the ignorant christian subculture.

Steve: They may not be as loud, but there are many who love Jesus who would also love you without trying to convert you to a heterosexual lifestyle.

Steve

Thank you Brandi,
I appreciate that. And for the record, I have no beef with christians as people. The few christian friends to whom I told my story and explained why my faith was no more have been gracious and understanding. Sad and concerned and all. But nobody has been hateful or preachy. You are free to have your faith, however misguided or unfounded I believe it to be. But when you expect, even demand, that others live according to what you believe, then we have a problem. A huge one.

trish

Well said! If I disagree with you I don’t hate I just don’t agree with you.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

Trish,

I would agree with that statement.

I don’t hate Steve.
I just disagree with him.

If in order to be my friend you had to agree with everything I believed I would be an incredibly lonely dude.

I’d totally hang with Steve, (and i hope he would be willing to hang with me.) and the topic of conversation would not be ‘how to convert him from homosexuality.’

i would love him the same way i love any of my friends.

http://Ourfamilye.wordpress.com Me.eliz

I appreciate this post, los. But it still seems like o havent really made your public stance yet.

Also, it may be true that we live in a free country where we have the freedom to express our opinion, but as soon as someone says that they believe homosexuality is wrong they are called a closeminded, hateful, oppresive, bigot. But if you someone is pro gay, they believe in freedom and equality….

So the truth is although we have the legal freedom to express what we want, we dont always have the social freedom… But as a christian, what else is new?

Los

I didn’t say I was going to take a public stance.

Aaron J.

Why not? Luke 9:26 seems to apply here pretty easily. Just because it’s not a popular opinion doesn’t mean we can’t have it. If our relationships with homosexuals is based off nothing more than not talking about what we disagree about, how superficial is that? A buddy of mine from college knows exactly where I stand on this, and we talk often about it with each other. God’s blessed you with this platform, bro. You can’t really claim to be “real” or “authentic” if you don’t give your own convictions.

http://csaproductions.com/blog/ Brendt Wayne Waters

I do believe you missed a sentence in the OP: “And give it when necessary but not just for the sake of giving it.”

While my “stance” is on the fairly conservative side of things, 99% of the public statements by Christians on this subject are given just for the sake of giving them.

The most offensive thing about the Chick-Fil-A kerfuffle is not the backlash that Cathy has received because of his statements, but the idiot “journalist” who felt it necessary that Cathy go on record with his stance on an issue that doesn’t have a blessed thing to do with selling chicken.

I won’t even go into the misuse of that Scripture. I can’t muster up enough graciousness to reply to that portion without Carlos having to ban me from his blog for life.

Dallas

Which makes you a coward. Just like you said.

http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

Dallas,

I don’t think that not stating what his opinion on this issue makes him a coward. (in fact I think he’s made himself quite clear in earlier posts)

Actually, I think he’s pretty amazing for allowing this dialogue on HIS blog. I see that you’re possibly trying to just use a description that he used of himself…but he wasn’t calling himself a coward for not speaking up.

I took it that he was calling himself a coward FOR speaking up…and then maybe compromising or backing down later because it was too painful or difficult. He’s saying we can all learn from people on both sides who are so brave that they are willing to lose their businesses, their reputations, their jobs, their families, and even their lives…to stand for their convictions.

Your average-joe Happy Go To Meetin’ Christian normally doesn’t have that kind of intestinal fortitude. We are wishy-washy except on issues that don’t affect us.

Aaron J.

I, too, am awaiting your opinion, Los. It’s odd that you’d write a post giving props to Cathy for doing what he did, and calling yourself a coward. Ok, so are you gonna step up?

I believe homosexuality goes against the way God created things to be, that it is sinful, but we MUST love others, no matter what they choose to do with their lives.

I gotta say this, too: I believe the scariest thing that may come out of this is that Politicians are using their “power” to affect commerce (Rahm Emmanuel and the mayor of Boston…). Scary times ahead.

http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

I appreciate the fact that Dan Cathy has the guts to stand by his statements and belief regardless of what may come. This is America.

We’re free to do that.

I also appreciate the fact that people have the right to choose which restaurant they’d like to patronize.
This is America.

We’re free to do that.

It’s funny to me that both sides are pointing fingers and saying “HYPOCRITE!!” “You’re intolerant! No! YOU’RE intolerant!”

Fact is we’re all intolerant. We tend to gather together with people who are like-minded and agree with our opinions and ideas. It’s human nature.

The thing about this issue is the Church is truly reaping (in my opinion) what it has sown. We were sent to be witnesses to Christ…not to be the Sin Police. And we have pounded on this subject in our pulpits and with our bullhorns and instead of drawing people to Christ we have caused them to be ALIENATED and bullied and beaten and scorned and sometimes killed.

And now we’re upset because they refuse to eat at restaurants that we like because the owner is a Christian and agrees with our worldview?

Gimme a break peeps.

I know this comment is going to cause some people to rear up in anger and be all “Now wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute here…”

But before you knee-jerk react to this comment. Stop and think for a second. If I’m wrong, and let’s face it that’s a HUGE possibility…then my apologies to you. But if I’m not…well I just leave it to you to decide.

But for the sake of Christ and all He died for…at least take the time to think before you react.
Brian

Well said Shayne! The Church well off to and has become known for what its against instead of what its for…Jesus, The Kingdom and Salvation!
http://www.oursavinggrace.blogspot.com Rachel

I also agree with Chick Fil A’s stand but my question is why isn’t there more of a stand against sexual immorality in general? There’s all this junk about the gay agenda and now a stink about the show the new normal but what about all the other shows we watch that celebrate unmarried men and women sleeping together. We watch those, laugh and thats ok? Its not! I think we all need to stop contradicting ourselves. The bible is very clear about both types of sexual immorality and there is no difference in God’s eyes.

http://www.calebgordon.com Caleb Gordon

“LIKE”
Dan

That’s what gets me. All 50 states now have “no fault” divorces but as states worked on making that legislation I saw churches put up no more than a token effort to stop it. Certainly not to the level of “gay marriage.” Heck, there are churches now that will marry people who have previously divorced for reasons other than adultery, despite what Matthew 5:32 says. The bottom line is I think the church is much “braver” about speaking out about sin that “won’t happen to me.”
http://saidahali.tumblr.com Saidah

The bible is very clear about all kinds of things that Christians choose to ignore. Like the idea that there are “corners of the earth,” or that the Gospel writers disagree (by about a century) on when Jesus was born, or that unruly children should be stoned to death. I mean, really, I could go on. The gay issue is an “issue” because it affects male ego, which is primarily what the church revolves around.

Kristin

I respect Mr. Cathy that, when asked, he responded honestly and concisely.

I also respect that some people, knowing how some profits of Chick fil A are spent, do not care to spend their money there.

What is unfortunate is how much this is taken out of proportion. A coworker “informed” me the other day that Dan Cathy said that Chick fil A did not want to serve gay people. What?? Now Chicago and Boston are threatening to not allow CFA to expand it’s stores based on its religious beliefs. Isn’t that illegal? I’m sooo confused. And sad.

Matthew

Just for clarification Chick-Fil-A never stated that they did not want to serve gay people in fact they said the exact opposite. The only thing said was When asked about their opinion on Gay Marriage He stood his ground and expressed his believe. Social media is blowing this way out of proportion.

Larry Marshall

Here’s a pretty good look at what Cathy actually did & didn’t say… if it’s helpful.
http://www.getreligion.org/2012/07/wheres-the-beef-what-the-chick-fil-a-boss-really-said/

http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

Thank you for posting that link.

As tribute to your faithfulness to that old oxymoron we know as “journalistic integrity” I shall now commence to do the Chicken Dance in your honor.

Complete with clapping and some suh-WEET polka tune-age.

All while my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek.

Shannon

I’m here. Right with you on this one. I thank you for this post.
http://www.milkshakesanytime.blogspot.com/ MMS

Great post, Los, and great comments. Really, really enjoyed reading all of it. I’m in love with the First Amendment, and thus we all have a right to our opinions. Dan Cathy stated his and good for him, and those of opposing position have the same right, and good for them, too. Just don’t understand the name calling because people exercise their rights.
Lucy

Fantastic comments both sides, here, but Dude…Did you really want to open this can of worms (or chicken)?
Joshua

This is why I don’t give a opinion. The plank in my eye is too big, I cannot point my finger. I’d rather continue to learn from my own fallen ways, and tell others how I have/am changed/changing, because of Him, than continue point my finger at others and remind them of their fallen ways.

Certainly, I respect anyone for stating their opinion. We live in a great nation that allows that. I can agree or disagree, if I so choose. But sometimes stances hurt people. And this stance might have hurt both people and his business.

http://Www.cherithbrook.wordpress.com Cherith

Yes! Me too. I keep my mouth shut unless I know I can talk to someone about it without judgements. Who am I to cast the first stone? Jesus loves me just as I am sin and all. Goodness- all this political mumbo gumbo gives me a headache!

And Los- I get your stance and appreciate what little you have said. Always thought provoking.

And chick-fil-a is delicious

http://brokenheadstock.com Phillip

This is such a divisive issue in the church today. Many Christians feel that homosexuals are some of the lowest sinners in the world, and many of those who claim to be forward-thinking and “tolerant” still view it as a sin. We can “love the sinner and hate the sin” all we want, but as long as the evangelical church condemns homosexuality as a sin, we will be viewed as intolerant, bigoted, small-minded, etc. That may be the cost of being holy/set apart from the world, or it may just be wrong.
Lindsay

Los, I’m glad you brought this up. I personally support Dan Cathy and I agree with his personal opinion. I am surprised this topic has gotten son much attention, maybe through all of this someone will see the love of Jesus. I know I will continue to eat my spicy chicken sandwiches:-)
Baa Baa Black Sheep

Dan’s comments made me want to drive across the border (from Canada) and eat me some chik-fil-a.

Maybe they should update their billboards to have sheep instead of cows prompting us to “eat more chicken”.
Daniel Windsor

Good for people and their opinions. In fact i am going to leave mine now. It’s not always the popular thing to do and sometimes the wrong thing to do but we all do it.

Luckily this is on a BLOG which for the most part invites opinions and different views.

I grew up in California which is very diverse and very tolerant, gay people in school/society was not a big deal to me. I didn’t know Christ then and for some reason I always thought it was wrong. Not because of what the Bible taught but just for the simple fact that it doesn’t work out(Physically).Now I have had the argument with many people and since coming to Christ people now assume that my opinion is because the Bible says it’s wrong…Other things that I knew were wrong before the bible? Porn(even as a teenager I knew it was not right), Murder, stealing, in fact before the Bible taught me anything a lot of the morally corrupt things the bible calls out I knew were wrong. Funny how that sense of Morality was ingrained in me before I knew Christ. Once coming to know Christ I quickly realized that we are created with this sense. How else would we know that as a kid that certain things are wrong? My 3 year old surprises me all the time with her views on what is right and wrong.

Now a tolerant society tells people(who are already questioning what they are doing) that you are just free to do what feels natural. The funny part about how we are created, we also have a sinful nature that we can’t help. I see this in my 3 year old who tells lies and doesn’t even realize it.

Being tolerant has more to do with telling people to give in to their sinful nature vs. encouraging people to live out the other side that was formed in them naturally by a God who desires to know them. I believe everyone has a choice, my Children will have a choice one day and I pray that I am able to parent them in such a way and encourage them to always make the God choice(although I know that won’t always be the case.)

Sorry for the long post..
Brianna

Plain and simple as a Christian we are called to do as the Bible tells us to do. We cannot expect non-Christians to do what the Bible says. I don’t care what sexual orientation anyone has but I do believe what the Bible says about marriage. I will pray for you and I will love you because that’s what I’m supposed to do and it definitely is not my place to judge you. Chick-fil-A basically said that they agree with what the Bible says, no surprise there. However, they did not say when you go to their restaurant they will ask if you are gay or straight and serve or not serve you accordingly. Instead, they will take your order, serve you with a smile, and say it is their pleasure. Too many people are making more out of this than they should. Would we all be so shocked if the church said they opposed gay marriage, I think not. Chick-fil-A isn’t a church, but they are a Christian based company…it is what it is.

MJT

Brianna, well said, I agree from a Biblical view the issue is pretty much moot.It is plain and simple, Andy Stanley preached a sermon some monthes ago and he had a catch phrase that was something like this, I’m talking to te believin’ not the heathen, which I believe speaks to your 2nd point.

Miriam

Dan Cathy’s statement on a radio show in which he asked, “God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about.”

I guess he could be making the same statement for himself. Most Evangelicals have this idea that their knowledge of the Bible as it is today is the be all to end all. So when claiming that something is “Biblical” I think it’s important to know the historical context in which the text was written and that the Bible has been translated over and over again from the original languages in which it was written.

And my other concern is, why couldn’t he have been so cavalier about speaking against world hunger, human trafficking or child abuse? Since when did loving someone who you intuitively love trump any of this?
http://milestogobeforeisleep1976.tumblr.com/ Luthor Parks

So, Los this is your opportunity to say what you believe about a “subject that will be the biggest the church will face in the next 10 years.”

Los

I’ll say it to the gay couple who asks me.
Not the Christians who ask.

Luthor Parks

So, is the “gay couple” not Christians? I will not infer or assume your opinion, stance, etc. But at the present time I am disappointed. I will tell that “gay couple” that, and if you would like to dialogue more just email me.

http://www.facebook.com/stacylittlejohn Stacy Littlejohn

I know someone else posted an article but here’s another really interesting one. After Googling like crazy for some evidence of “anti-gay” comments (verbiage many articles are using) I see none. Just SEEMS like a lot of personal/political agenda has caused quite an uproar- and as the industry has reputation for, the original media on this may have reported way out of context. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/media-invents-story-chik-fil-head-condemned-gay-marriage_648913.html?page=1
Airlantiss

Los,
This is a topic that has been at the forefront of my mind for several weeks now as my church was recently picketed by Westboro Baptist because one of our members with a huge public platform had made the comment that we are “gay friendly” which if you came to our church you would realize we are just “friendly period”.
This is not an easy subject, and yes; I believe what the Bible has to say on it but I also know I live in sin everyday and have to repent. My sin is obesity and I can’t not even begin to make anyone understand the turmoil, tears, and prayers this takes me through. I would think sexuality would be ten times harder to come to grips with. In fact, I happen to know someone who is gay and also in relationship with God and know the tearing of his soul and the fights and failures and feeling of being totally overwhelmed.
We are beginning to wrestle with this as a church and open dialogue over it. I think the one guy who said something about hooking in with a group will be important to anyone who is struggling but sometimes even in a “friendly” church that is so much easier said than actually done. I know that from my own personal struggles.
Anyway, love your blog and grateful all of the opinions on it.
And to the guy who said the joke is on him….it isn’t God loves you so much. I know it must be hard to believe or feel that sometimes when you are probably beating yourself up over your failures but He does and He won’t leave you so don’t leave Him.

http://www.facebook.com/stacylittlejohn Stacy Littlejohn

Oh how I love your comments.
http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

Can I just thank you for this comment?

I struggle with obesity as well and really? Food isn’t something you can just “not do.”

We have to eat. And let’s face it…unless we wanna be really really cranky we need to get some e’er once in a while too.

Not to be crude…but come ON. This must be such a HUGE fight for those who deal with it. Praying for us all to be covered in mercy and grace.
http://eternallizdom.blogspot.com Liz

Have you read “Made to Crave” by Lysa TerKeurst? Very thought provoking.

http://www.mohan37.com mo

I’m bummed for all the people who could lose their job over this. What a selfish thing to do. No one got saved. No one changed their mind. But a whole lot of people will take their money elsewhere, and a business bigger than one person will suffer. And for what? No one came closer to Jesus, and as usual thousands have been driven further away. What a stupid, stupid waste.

http://mimiandbutterbean.blogspot.com Shayne

Yeah…and the funniest part about it is…he was NEVER asked in the original interview about gay people or gay marriage.

So all of this is really over…nothing.

Daniel

It bothers me when people say this issue is cut and dry. It’s probably fair to say that the majority of Christians believe that being a LBGT is sinful. However, there was a time in this country when a majority of people thought that slave ownership was perfectly fine and biblical. There was a time in this country when people thought it was perfectly fine to strangle the rights of minorities and women. Scripturally It all comes down to point of view, context, and the acuracy of original translations. The churches view on many issues has changed radically over the centuries. One must divorce themselves from history to think it could not happen again or to think we’ve “finally gotten the important stuff correct in the Bible”

I believe Los is right, and i’ll go a step further. How the church handles this issue will be one of the issues that define the church historially for this era. The LBGT population in this country is growing and crying out for rights and acceptance. I feel as though the Church as we know it will either accept them or the Church will undergo a massive split.

Daniel Windsor

Please do not compare Slavery and Homosexuality. Completely different topics and have nothing to do with each other. The bible takes a hard stance against slavery in every context. I don’t see anywhere that God says, “Men it’s ok to have sex with men and Women do the same.”

I don’t think the Church will split on this..And the fact that you would say that goes directly against what Jesus said in Matt 16:18

DW

Also I understand the church has had many hiccups in it’s over 2000 year history but never a split over sin.
Daniel

I’d really like to see multiple instances of the Bible taking a hard line against slavery outside of a specific circumstance. I’m not saying slavery is good; it’s very bad. All I’m saying is that there are a lot of things that are sanctioned in the Bible that would never ever fly today.

Also so say that the church will not split because of Matthew 16 is just silly. Read your church history. How many serious major splits has the church gone through over serious theological/doctrinal issues and how many denominational splits has the church in America gone through in this century alone?

DW

Theological and Doctrinal issues aren’t sin issues..The Church globally is stronger today then it ever has been. Doubt this issue will break those barriers.

biblical stand against Slavery you got me there…I was spouting off without thinking..But justice was a part of God’s message. Slavery was definitely a normal part of life back then, but still a different issue non the less.

Daniel

How sin is defined and how it should be dealt with is certainly a doctrinal issue, albeit not necessarily a theological one. What constitutes a sin has been debated since the churches in Acts.

http://saidahali.tumblr.com Saidah

Actually, Daniel, as a black, non-gender-normative person, I give you full permission to compare slavery and homophobia. The Bible gives it’s stamp of approval to both. But for the record, most abolitionist did NOT oppose slavery because they felt so deeply that owning people was so terrible. They opposed it because they felt it was immoral not to work willingly and slaves only worked when and because they had to. They also felt that as non-members of society, slaves had too much freedom; they had sex with whoever they wanted, spoke freely, drank heavily, danced (with rhythm lol), and were generally known to stop working whenever they felt like it. All of which, in the neo-Puritan age after the Revolutionary War, was just Not Okay. lol

Jeff

Can we all agree on this — it is still the best chicken sandwhich on the planet! Chick-fil-a is a success for not only their faith background, but because they are ran in a successful manner and sell a great product. I appreciate Dan and his willingness to stand up!

http://www.anivus.com Craig Littlejohn

o Chick-fil-A® Chicken Biscuit with strawberry jam how I miss thee !

Kit Palmer

Thanks again Carlos for starting this conversation. I have wanted to weigh in on this subject since it first hit the news but I am conflicted as to how to state my feelings.

Like many who have posted here, I respect Mr. Cathy for his unflinching honesty concerning his view on the subject. And I do personally agree with him. The problem I have is I can find no way to say that without sounding judgmental or condemning toward the homosexual community. It is so troubling to me that the church continues to focus on changing people into what we think God wants them to be rather than just loving them exactly as they are (with no requirement for them to respond in kind) and by doing so point them to the source of that love. That’s all I want to do. Anything I try to do beyond that shows my own self righteousness. I can’t save anyone (even myself) by changing my or their actions. No one will go to hell for being gay, or lying or murder or gluttony, but if they never have a chance to experience His love through His church, how will they ever find their way to His saving grace?

You cant legislate morality and the whole gay mariage issue can only bring division. How do we change the conversation to love without compromising our own personal convictions?

http://eternallizdom.blogspot.com Liz

I think you don’t have much to worry about. When your focus is love, love wins. I think your message is exactly right. Maybe you don’t agree with homosexuality- it’s your personal opinion. But the Great Commandment is to love one another. It wasn’t to love others so we can get them in the door and then change them into good Christian Autobots. It wasn’t to show them God’s awesomeness so they can become different than who they already are. When we show and share God’s awesome love to ALL, that’s when love wins! And I like what you said- if I think I’m going to bring someone to Jesus so they end up seeing their sins and change into whatever I think isn’t sinful, that’s awfully self-righteous.

http://www.anivus.com Craig Littlejohn

Los what I struggle with is this: Do I want to use my influence to promote a political agenda or do I want to use my influence to lead people to Christ. I never post things about politics on my social media accounts because I think I will have to “cash in” influence points with some people to do so. For me, I would much rather be know for being pro-Jesus then being pro-gay or pro-republican or pro-obama.

I also have the added weight of being in full-time paid ministry so I know that people are watching me even more then if I was just representing myself. (Not arguing weither this is good or bad, just a realization of the truth)

I love what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:2 “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” And I want my life to stink of Jesus, not politics.

That’s what I struggle with.

http://eternallizdom.blogspot.com Liz

I am reminded of the lyric in “Jesus, Friend of Sinners…”

Nobody knows what we’re for only what we’re against when we judge the wounded

JW

We are losing our freedom when the mayors of two large cities keep them from coming in because they disagree with the personal views of the CEO. Boston and Chicago Christians need to protest that!

Daniel

JW, that’s not a “freedom” issue. Corporations aren’t granted the right to set up wherever they desire, they must be approved by the local government. That approval is based on an number of issues one of which could certainly be civil rights and being a equal opportunity employer. The opinion of ChickFilA’s CEO on the subject of LGBT could be seen as a civil rights violation waiting to happen to a LGBT employee.

And as much we all love their chicken, you aren’t granted the right to have your favorite restaurant in your city.
L.

I agree. I’m not comfortable with government trying to block a business either.

http://www.prayerpunk.com PrayerPunk

Ok, I’m going to get on my soapbox now. When did homosexuality become the “ultimate rebellion against God?” Really? Making love with someone is worse than rape and murder? It was so important, Jesus talked about Himself, right? No he didn’t. Jesus didn’t mention it once. Now I understand what St. Paul said in Romans and elsewhere, and I do believe homosexual acts are a sin along with fornication, adultery, divorce, and yes even gluttony. The fact remains Jesus never condemned a single person these or any other sins for that matter. The only people he condemned where to holier than thou hypocrites who would not recognize they to where sinners. So now what? Well lets look at slavery. The Bible does not condemn it. However, what St. Paul does is tell people to be good slaves, and he tells the masters to treat their slaves like their brothers. Oops, once you do that slavery is over. You can’t treat your brother as property, it just doesn’t work. The bottom line is we are supposed to be the light of the world, the salt of the earth, you know the good stuff that people want, but frankly we are failing. Christians are not the light and no one wants to be like us, because we are acting like the holier than thou hypocrites that Christ himself condemned. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES. DON’T JUDGE. DON’T CONDEMN. I will end with the words the apostle John is supposed to have said when he was very old and near death. “Little children, love each other.”
Mike

So…….what’s your stance, Los?

Los

Ask my gay friends.
It’s for them.
Not the Christians…

http://mustardseedyear.com Jason

Los, you know I love you, man…but I think you’re wrong on that one.

You are a public Christian leader whether you like it or not. As a worship leader and recording artist, as a Christian who is on the road in various churches and ministering to tens of thousands and probably millions before you’re done, your position on this issue is actually very relevant to a discussion that has cultural implications.

As a leader within the church, you can’t hide your position as to what the Bible says is a sin and what is not a sin. If you’re put in a place to be a leader, the people following have a right to know your beliefs/doctrinal positions when you are asked about it regardless of their sexual orientation.

I’m not saying that you have to go out and blast it from the rooftops…but if someone who looks up to you as a Christian leader…and God has placed you in a position of visible leadership…asks you respectfully your view it’s not really fulfilling your position as a leader to dismiss them unless they claim to be gay.

Daniel

Jason, you say Carlos can make his opinion known without “shouting it from the rooftops” Sure, he could that. But I’m sure his opinion would be shouted from the rooftops for him.

Gary

wait… so your “gay friends” and “the christians” aren’t or can’t be one and the same?

I think he declared his stance.

Phronsie

He never said that they couldn’t be the same. I don’t know why it matters so much what his stance is as long as he shows God’s love to them. Same as anyone else.

Michael

I am a Christian and I believe that every human being should be afforded equal rights and liberties. When will we learn? African Americans can now sit anywhere on a bus and eat where they choose. Women can vote and hold jobs in any platform (except most churches). Eventually homosexuals will be able to get married legally in all states, and this is a good thing. This way there will be one less thing we as Christians can be complete hypocrites about. I am well versed in biblical scripture and Jesus makes no mention of homosexuality in any way. He does condemn divorce. I see no church fighting to make divorce illegal, why? We use OT to get our point across, except we gloss over every other outdated Jewish law in Leviticus. Should we kill our neighbor if he works on the Sabbath? We as Christians wonder why the secular world sees us as a running joke. The absolute last thing the church should be involved in is the bedroom of anyone else. The church has become a sleazy bed of child molestation and other sexual behaviors.
http://a-workinprogress.net Tom Wilkins

What a great comment thread. Since it would be far too difficult and time consuming to respond to everyone, I’ll just mention what occurred to me when I first read about Fil-a-gate a couple of days ago.

One of my more liberal Christian friends posted a comment that she would no longer be patronizing Chick-fil-a because of their gay marriage stance. I thought it was interesting because the church (most churches, anyway, and certainly mine) opposes gay marriage, too. I asked if this same person would withhold their tithe from the local church because they’re pretty open about how they feel, too?

In any case, while I agree with what Mr Cathy had to say, I also think it’s dangerous to get into which sin is worse, or degrees of sin.

All I know is I am a flawed individual. I judge when I don’t want to. I have views that are sometimes unpopular, and I am happy to tell people about them anyway. I curse more than I should. I lust, and I recently had the opportunity to share my faith and did not.

I sin all the time, and I need grace probably more than most people.

Because I know that, I have no intention of judging people for who they CHOOSE to sleep with. I think I will just do my best to love them as they are, and try and show them with my life who Jesus is.

That’s the best I can do.

http://Speakeroftruth.com Eric Fitzpatrick

I agree with you. We need more people wo show who Christ is through their life and not through words.

Brenda

I often feel so afraid of being misunderstood or accused of something untrue because of my opinions that I find myself becoming quieter and quieter. Sometimes I find that frustrating. Sometimes I think it’s a good thing because it’s way too easy for me to open my mouth and talk like I KNOW I’m right, when maybe I’m not.
Sam

I did not read all of the comments. That being said, I just want to know with all these people shouting “tolerance” why are they not tolerant of our viewpoint. Why are we always the ones that have to change our point of view.

I don’t care what two adults do in the privacy of their home. DO NOT teach it to my kids or grandkids. If we cannot stand on the corner and proclaim our beliefs do try to proclaim yours.

It works both ways. I am not the one to judge. God is.

Daniel

It is a strange think to see a majority group protesting a minority on, psychologically speaking.

Can or should one be tolerant of an intolerant viewpoint? There have been dictators throuought history that have used the proclivities of their respective people groups to promote intolerance to the point of genocide.

So where do we draw the line?

Tric

Being who God created you to be, cannot and will not separate you from God’s love.

It seems most of these comments operate under the assumption that homosexuality is a choice. It’s not. This isn’t up for debate. You don’t get to argue with science.

Daniel

But people will argue. After all, we believe vastly different things about the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics than we did in the 60s.

People will say, “Science changes, but the Bible doesn’t”

To that I’ll say, perhaps the words themselves haven’t changed over time (which is debatable) but our interpretations of them certainly have.

Shannon

http://theonlydraft.wordpress.com/2012/07/26/controversy/
Dan

“Following backlash after those remarks, Cathy then told the Baptist Press in an article posted July 16 that he is “guilty as charged” and is very “supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit.” That is really all he said; he didn’t say ANYTHING hateful; he just expressed his views which by the way are consistent with what Christianity has taught for the past 2000 years. I honestly don’t understand the hate that has been heaped upon him. And for those who do disagree with him: Why are we so willing to overlook the countless and blatant flaws of celebrities, rappers etc. but when the owner of a company shares his views with a christian media source we have a cow? The hypocrisy is mind boggling!
http://rkblog.com Rich Kirkpatrick

Carlos, you are right on.

I say, lets talk about this and get over it! Let’s call each other out for the hypocrisy when it shows and let the gay community know we are not drones to Right wing media (or Left wing). For instance, we can believe God’s design for marriage is man and woman, but not be for banning rights. How about a more honest, and deeper conversation?

BTW…I think all sides –Right and Left–have been DUPED by the media and political machine to pick a clear side when it comes to chicken sandwiches, so now we either dress up like cows or boycott. Really? Let’s not be so easily jilted.
Mikesalazar

Good stuff Carlos!!! I feel your passion in this article.
But your choice of words (Pissed Off) is not CHRIST Like Vocabulary
There are other words to convey your message.
Thank- You for stepping up!!! Peace My Brother!!!
Alanna

I don’t think Los made he stance clear by saying his opinion was “for my gay friends and not the Christians.”

The use of the capital C implies the whole body of Christians as it does when we say the Church vs. the church (specific and singular when it is not capitalized.)

So, no he hasn’t made it clear his stance or implied that his gay friends aren’t christians themselves. Only that he was not going to share his opinion with the vast majority that asks.
Cody

Reading these comments leaves me with so many thoughts. First, I’m glad that most everyone commenting realizes the importance of our country allowing everyone the freedom of their own opinion. I’m glad that most everyone here isnt condemning others. I sincerly feel aweful for Steve, and so many like him, who prayed to God for years asking Him to change his flesh with no answer and now believes God has failed him, while others think Steve is the one who failed. It’s situations like these why I can understand how so many Christians come to the conclusion that its possible to be in a right standing relationship with God while living a homosexual lifestyle. But it’s not God who has failed or the individual, but our understanding. I pray that God gives us all wisdom and understanding that we might know and accept His truth.

I know i dont have all the answers and i don’t mean to preach at people, but I would like to offer these points for people to contemplate and consider.

-God gave us the law as a ruler, a measuring stick, training wheels in a sense. It’s shows us how messed up we are and how messed up this world is in comparison to God’s holiness. (the law is very clear)

- Jesus did not come to set us free from the law. He came to set us free from the curse of the law, all the things that go wrong when we break it. Jesus actually completed the law, fulfilled it, and satisfied it, by becoming cursed for us. Jesus is God’s word, Jesus is the law.

-When we accept Jesus and put him in charge of our lives, He instantly makes us a new person on the inside. He did NOT instantly give us a new body. He gives us the ability to OVERCOME sin and make our bodies subject to our spirit. (God does not take away our temptation or our flesh that desires to go against God’s law)

Its like everyone forgets we were born in sin. We say “I was born this way, so that must be how God made me.” Wrong. Being born into sin made us this way, not God. It’s not easy to follow Jesus. It’s not easy to turn from the driving impulses that our flesh bombards us with. I’ve had a hard time following God’s way in every part of my life. But God can make us into overcomers. It’s a fight, so stand up and fight. Its easy to grow weary, so spend time worshipping and praising God and He will give you all the strength you need.

I try to remember when sharing that the Truth is like electricity, it can bring power to peoples lives, but if you don’t insulate the electricity in Love, it will only kill them.

http://www.facebook.com/stacylittlejohn Stacy Littlejohn

Cody, I think you stated this so well. Glad you commented.

http://onceforalldelivered.blogspot.com/ Todd Van Voorst

I am not sure what you mean by “nothing worse than a preacher with a megaphone.”

Could you please help me understand what you meant by that per se?

Thank you sir.

Mike C

I too would like some clarification on what was meant by that statement. Not too sure what to make of it.

http://hereiblog.com/ Mark

Ironically: http://hereiblog.com/lgbt-rights-group-equality-illinois-westboro-baptist-common/
Colin

I look at the situation in a little different way and I will be 100% honest and say that I believe that my way is the correct way.

For example, I believe that the 17 year old boyfriend and girlfriend that are sleeping together and having sex (like I did when I was that age) are committing the exact same sin as a gay couple having sex. I also believe that the elderly couple who are not married and having sex are committing the same sin. And the middle age couple who have both been divorced and at back in the dating game, if they at having sex than they are committing the same sin also. Pornography also falls into here.

We cannot tell gay people they are the only ones sinning. When having a conversation it has to be based around a biblical view of sexual immorality and everything that fits in there must be considered and I believe from my study of scripture that everything except a husband and a wife having sex is a sexual sin and falls under sexual immorality.

http://twitter.com/worshipfulone worshipfulone ♪

Agree completely.

Joe

Politicians, morticians, Philistines, homophobes
Skinheads, Dead heads, tax evaders, street kids
Alcoholics, workaholics, wise guys, dim wits
Blue collars, white collars, war mongers, peace nicks

Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God
Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God

Suicidals, rock idols, shut-ins, drop outs
Friendless, homeless, penniless and depressed
Presidents, residents, foreigners and aliens
Dissidents, feminists, xenophobes and chauvinists

Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God
Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God

Evolutionists, creationists, perverts, slum lords
Dead-beats, athletes, Protestants and Catholics
Housewives, neophytes, pro-choice, pro-life
Misogynists, monogamists, philanthropists, blacks and whites

Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God
Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God

Police, obese, lawyers, and government
Sex offenders, tax collectors, war vets, rejects
Atheists, Scientists, racists, sadists
Photographers, biographers, artists, pornographers

Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God
Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God

Gays and lesbians, demagogues and thespians
The disabled, preachers, doctors and teachers
Meat eaters, wife beaters, judges and juries
Long hair, no hair, everybody everywhere!

Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God
Breathe deep
Breathe deep the Breath of God

-The Lost Dogs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA_Rb10IJHc
Jen

Hey Carlos,

You’re an example to Christians who may not be as far on their path as you are. It would be great if you answered these questions, too. I see that you don’t want to take a stand publicly but you started talking and your readers seem to have answers. It’s a good time to help baby Christians who look up to you become a little more solid in their faith and beliefs.

http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com loswhit

loswhit@gmail.com
a blog is in no way a good place for a conversation like that.

liz

Carlos,
I think that you are just trying to cop-out.. You were the one that brought up the subject and talked about how Mr. Cathy said what he believes in without apologizing for it. You have been asked what you believe and you will not say. So…by your own words doesn’t that still make you a coward for not stepping up and saying what you believe??

I would like to know what you believe. I have thought about this and other things that you have posted. I used to follow you on twitter as well…like I said used to. I believe that you have posted some questionable things….in my view. I have thought about this for a while…so this is fair well..I’m sorry to say.

http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com loswhit

it’s fare well…
A blog is not the place for arguing.
Give me a call and I’ll be happy to talk!
Los

http://matrixlajon.wordpress.com/ Matrix Lajon

I have said this before in other threads about this topic: People need to work out their own walks with fear and trembling like the Bible says, this is first and foremost. Lot less relationship/bedroom issues would take place.