Carlos Whittaker

Mar24

Are We Relevant Enough?

Posted by loswhit in Religion,Service Programming

I think we are asking the wrong question when we ask if the church is “relevant”.
Screw relevant.
People are done with relevant.
Seriously.
We are in a time a place where the world is waiting for an answer of Hope.
And I can promise you this.
Hope is not being sought after in relevance.
Hope is being sought after in real relationships.
So when you sit down in your next creative meeting, elder meeting, sermon planning meeting…
Do you’re community a favor and don’t ask how you can make your next series or concept relevant.
Instead ask how you can make your members and staff relational and real.

Recovering Relevant Ragamuffin,
Carlos

http://intensedebate.com/people/Alastair Alastair

Los, agree 100%. Too many sacrifices have been made under the guise of Relevance. I'm loving the new refreshed, regenerated, post-sabbatical Los.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

HAS to start there.
http://stephenstonestreet.wordpress.com Stephen Stonestreet

Amen to that! For a long time before I came to where I am now, I was totally talking up the whole "relevent" talk for my youth group, and it ended up failing, which brought me to where I am now… We have to stop "trying" and do what God's will is, and that is relationships with one another and the Father through Christ!

"trying" is failing, it is doing something to make what you want happen, which will end in utter disaster. It is doing something "FOR" God instead of "WITH" God.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

huh?

http://intensedebate.com/people/Adam_S Adam_S

When people started asking are we being relevant, what they were after is how can we speak to people so that they understand the gospel of Christ. That is really what you are asking when you talking about hope. I am not opposed to changed the words we use. Because sometimes we use the wrong words. But I don't think you are asking a fundamentally different question. What does God want to say to these people that surround us?

http://www.intensedebate.com/people/pinkhairedgirl Crystal Renaud

oh, thank you. i think by being relational and real… you will there in turn… be relevant.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

lol
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

"lame" is returned with 37,900,000 results as well.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
But a MAGAZINE however…
And it helps that the magazine is legit.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

preach
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

You will achieve it by not trying.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

Are you a preacher or something? Awesome.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

I'm hating me.
But loving it too.
Thanks man.
http://ryanguard.net ryan guard

p.s. Just kidding. This isn't Cameron.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

Dude. I know. Look at your face.
Candi Shelton

Relevance shouldn't be thrown out with the bath water- only there should probably be some serious evaluation as to how we define "relevance". If we want to be truly relevant, then Jesus Christ is our only hope. He alone is the most relevant being- He pertains to all, gives purpose to all, ignites passion in all, and takes hope and mingles it with faith to create something bigger than we are. THAT is relevance. That is the relevance that inspires authentic relationships, impacts communities, changes hearts, and advances some serious Kingdom work!

Thanks for the post, friend.
Clayman

I'm relevant when I live it at work. And on the road. And at the store. Without God, I can't live it.
http://intensedebate.com/people/jeremyhaines jeremyhaines

Society today, for the most part, would rather see the church be authentic as opposed to relevant. That's why people will go to a traditional church that they have no stylistic connection with if the pastor is "REAL." It's also why they will stop going to that exact same church when the choir butchers a Hillsong United tune. It's comes across hypocritical and turns them off. The same holds true on the other end of the church "style" spectrum. Just keep it real. Don't try to be something you're not. Be who God created you to be. If we will embrace this we will reach EXACTLY who God wants us to reach EVERY time. GUARANTEED!
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

Um. damn. awesome.
I think the rub I am fighting against is…
Relevance = plasma
Relevance = Diesel
Relevance = Bono
Relevance = motion graphics

I think I could handle Relevance = Real
And thanks for your input. Holla out more often ese.
Los
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

Slap my momma.
http://www.alicemarysmith.tumblr.com Alice

Os Guinness' book on this topic is the best I've ever read – it is titled Prophetic Untimeliness and the sub-title is A Challenge to the Idol of Relevance. Check it out:

http://www.amazon.com/Prophetic-Untimeliness-Chal…
http://www.reflectionofgrace.wordpress.com brandi

a freaking men.

2 weeks ago i sat across from a beautiful 13 year old girl who i had to confront about the cuts on her arms. she stared at me with no emotion while i told her i understood how she felt. no emotion when i told her she wasnt the only one who struggles with this. blank stares as i told her we were going to have to tell her parents.

but when i looked right into her eyes & told her she didn't always have to be this way… that someday she would be on the other side of all this pain & that i would be there to see her through it.. that she is not hopeless…. the tears flowed & something in her eyes said she just might want to believe it enough to actually let it change things.

so yes. relationships that breed hope… good stuff. good post. thanks for the reminder.
http://getreelonline.blogspot.com/ Ethan

I still believe relevant is important but only in the presence of authenticity.
Relevant fiction is much worse than irrelevant real life.
.
aimee

don't be hating you!! you know you are on the right road. keep on going.
http://www.andykirk.tv Andy Kirk

You're a step ahead los… i dig this. People aren't interested in a mild dose of Jesus anymore… or one that's shiny and clean and fits neatly into their pocket… they want to get dirty knowing and loving people… and most importantly knowing jesus for real. I think we have to be willing to go there as "the church" quicker than we look to the next program, or cool piece of relevance in our delivery of the gospel. Thanks for your post.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Allyjack Allyjack

Relationships–Los, you're right; that's the key. And as we connect with non-believers (and of course other believers) and form relationships, we can listen to them and perhaps share the gospel in a contextualized (or relevant) way that helps the person hear it more clearly or understand it in a way she hasn't before. But nothing speaks more loudly than actions…loving someone right where she is. People need love and hope–they need Jesus; I've never heard anyone (except maybe a judge or opposing counsel) say they needed relevance.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Allyjack Allyjack

You said exactly what I meant
http://ryanguard.net ryan guard

look at YOUR face!

But I'm with you on this one… It gets old watching the church adopt/copycat the trends that the trendsetters in culture have already abandoned at the side of the road.
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com Los

Yea man.
Thanks.
How is OKC treating you?
Los

Thanks. Great stuff. Actions are THE KEY
http://intensedebate.com/people/human3rror human3rror

epic.
http://texasinafrica.blogspot.com Texas in Africa

So I'm in the middle of Skye Jethani's fantastic book and last night got to the chapter about churches that try to be relevant for everyone, essentially offering a consumer culture where you can choose your time of day, style of worship, and type of preaching. This tends to create homogenous churches, which is contradictory to the whole resurrection thing.

I think "relevant" is usually understood to mean making things "comfortable," especially with respect to people who wouldn't normally set foot in a church. But there's nothing – NOTHING – about the gospel of Jesus Christ that's meant to make us comfortable. So maybe we should be in community with people who are completely different from us, who hate the styles of worship we like the most, and who don't necessarily adore the pastor or his wife. The kingdom of God is a lot messier than the American church.
http://texasinafrica.blogspot.com Texas in Africa

I meant to add that nothing drives me crazier than churches that don't have a cross visible anywhere because it makes first-time visitors uncomfortable. Seems like false advertising.
Curtis

relevance is a by-product right of real right? one day some dude said it's cool to wear jeans with holes and a buddah on it ..and you need to pay $250 to do that..we bit and did it/do it…

we need to be the dudes saying what's worth investing your life in..

hope is the new relevance..

Los

write a freaking book.
That was yummy

http://smr10.tumblr.com Steven

I think the church shall exist in it's realness when it learns that it doesn't have to be "like the world."

A walk through a lot of churches and Christian bookstores shows me that we are trying to hard to be liked…er…..
relevant
As if relevance…er….acceptance….is something that the church really needs. I guess the thought process is, "if we can lure them in with our fancy (lame) takeoff of current trendy items, we can lead them to Jesus.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Adam_S Adam_S

Ed Seltzer posted an interview with Andy Stanley about how he develops and prepares his messages. I was shocked at the number of responses that made it a point of pride that they didn't make their messages "relevant" to the hearer. Several of them were explicitly saying that their job was only to preach, they had no responsibility in helping people understand and use their new found knowledge in their daily life. I have no special attachment to the word relevant, but Candi definition is what we should be doing, whether we call it relevant or something else. If people are unchanged then we are not doing our job.
http://www.anailinhisplace.net jweaks

Indeed! if relevant means current, hip, cool then that is often opposed to what is real and true.
http://smr10.tumblr.com Steven

One of the definitions of the word is "having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand."

In that sense, the church shall truly be relevant, not when it has the super casual preacher with the great speaking style, a coffee bar, and free wi-fi (not that there is anything wrong with any of that), but rather when it is helping just as many whores, drug addicts, adulterers, alcoholics, people addicted to pornography, etc. as it is on furthering the walk of those within it's membership.

Both are important in "having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand."
Los

Yea man.
Los

Going to buy…
Los

yw
Los

Per Candi's response.
Los

Is it a quicky dink that we are on the same chapter?
http://www.tangentartist.com Chris

I struggle with the “being myself” idea. I work hard to reach a younger generation than myself. I wonder at times if it is the Word/Holy Spirit that is influencing them or my ability to be cool (which some would say is sorely lacking) But then why did Paul become all things to all people? I know I don’t need to be more or better than God created me to be. However, I might need to be different than my preferences to reach people whose preferences are different than mine. For example a missionary goes to China and finds that his Western clothes are keeping people from hearing the message. So he embraces the culture and wears their clothes(becoming relevant.) Hearts and minds are transformed. Maybe it is the motivation behind wanting/needing to be relevant?

Los

It is all in the definition of Relevant. "Cool" vs. "effective"

http://intensedebate.com/people/David_Knapp David_Knapp

I'm glad you got it figured out. It took me leaving the country to find this answer.
http://www.crucialencounter.com Andy McMahon

I blogged about this about a month ago, but I'll say this. I not only am annoyed at relevant but the entire RE: movement. Everything in church has been re: this or re:that. We need to realize that the word will always be relational, and stop trying to put it in a graphic T.

We need to stop trying to Re:imagine, Re:Focus Re:Form Re:Church Re:Think Re:Inventing Re:Define Even…Re:levent.

I guess what we all need to do is Re:Pent and realize that it's all about the Re:surrection.

Praise God! Other people are getting sick of this! Let's get to the word! Amen.

Los

Amen. LOL

http://mandyconforth.blogspot.com mandy

Relevance (acc. to Webster)-having a bearing on or connection with the subject at issue.

Sometimes being an expert, or having experience with a topic does nothing but drive a wedge between myself & someone looking for answers within the church walls.

I'd rather be Relational. Approachable. Humble.
http://intensedebate.com/people/michelecushatt michelecushatt

If we loved on people like crazy, spent time getting in their head, listening intently, sharing unhurried time … we'd be a heckuva lot more relevant and wouldn't have to chatter about how relevant we are. It'd happen because we're invested.
Los

Wow.
Los

Are you a preacher or something?
Cause you just spit some truth.
Thanks for being relational with my wife.
Los
http://intensedebate.com/people/Art_Good Art_Good

"Relevance = Real"

You know… this really pisses me off. For the last 8 years I bought into the whole idea of being a "relevant church." Just about the time I think I know what that means, it is decided that it is no longer as important to be "relevant" as it is to be "real" or "relational."

You know what… I'm fine with that. I'm not relevant. I grew up in a small town in Indiana. I'm about to go back into youth ministry after being away from it for 8 years being a "senior pastor" (what a joke). There is no way I can be "relevant" to a 15, 16, 17 year old. I'm not going to dress like them. I'm not going to listen to their music. I hate Mt. Dew for the most part. I would rather sleep than do just about anything. I am the epitome of NOT relevant.

But, I intend to be REAL. I intend to be me, all me, and nothing but me. AND, my prayer is that they see so much of JESUS in me that they don't notice how uncool, unhip, untalented and un-relevant I am . I want to fade into the background so all they see is HIM. If that happens, and I pray to God it does, I don't know of anything more relevant.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Art_Good Art_Good

"I guess what we all need to do is Re:Pent and realize that it's all about the Re:surrection."

That is MONEY!

http://www.crucialencounter.com Andy McMahon

Thanks! (Patent pending).

http://katdish.blogspot.com katdish

What sucks is the number of hours spent in staff meetings talking about being relational with unchurched people. So much time that there is very little time left to actually spend with unchurched people. You don't need a masters degree in theology to talk to your neighbor or strike up a conversation with your local barrista. If pastors and church leaders are going to preach it, they darn well better model it. And if you're too busy to model it, you're too dang busy. It sounds like I'm bashing, but I'm not…just reminding. I think we're all guilty of it to some extent.
http://theblossoms.wordpress.com Amber

I just think you have to be able to relate to the struggles and dreams of your neighbor. Look her in the eye without wincing and have not just compassion but empathy cause we've all been there….we are all still there. But I think it's good to have cool music, too, and crack a joke about current culture from time to time, too. Just my two pennies.
http://intensedebate.com/people/chrissulli Chris Sullivan

Was trying to find the time to respond but I think its all been said. The gospel is relevant and if you are living and moving in tune with it, you will be too. As far as being hip or cool (which isn't really what relevant means to me), we need to reach people where they are. Isn't this blog an example of that? We don't need to be trendy or focus on branding but we can't sit in old fashioned pews with old fashion music and never change or adapt (to be clear: I'm not talking about changing the message). I don't view that as an attempt to be hip or cool but to reach people where they are without watering down the message.
http://carolineschell.blogspot.com Caroline

I don't think the goal is to be "real" or "relevant." The goal is to be holy and Christ-like. When that happens real and relevant are taken care of/ they don't really matter anymore.

Sorry if I'm repeating a comment. Sometimes I comment before reading everything else.
http://intensedebate.com/people/dg4G David

For me, this comes down to one of my favourite scriptures…"the Church is not peripheral to the world, the world is peripheral to the Church" (Eph 1:23, The Msg). The Gospel is the only thing truly relevant, thing is…are we doing His Gospel justice in our representation. If we aim for real & relational, then yep…it will be relevant.
http://thestanleyclan.blogspot.com Becca

Love this post. So so true. And I think when we're able to be comfortable in our identity in Christ and who He made us to be – we dont have to worry so much about being "relevant" or "hip"
http://www.loribiddle.com Lori Biddle

I agree! Nothing exists that is more relevant that the gospel of Jesus, plain and simple! All the college kids are searching for authenticity I can tell you that much. They are so fed up with the America Dream and all the junk our society wants us to think is relevant!

I am fed up too! It's time to be real and connect! Everyone is searching for what we already have!!
http://www.twitter.com/winnjr Buddy

I can see both sides of the "argument."

//Hip// = twittering, attending conferences, blogging, adding readers/users/followers/friends ad naseum (I've done some of that). Oh, also, soul patches and thick rimmed black glasses, patterned shirts and Halpert hair (I have a crew cut, great vision, and can't grow facial hair). But those in "the circle" can relate and that can add to a sense of belonging to something big, something beyond themselves, something in which they sense God's presence.

//Relevant// = submission to God's love –> enables heart changes —> allows you to see through/past/beyond the exterior of the lost (or the "found" who are playing the game) —> allows you to acknowledge your motives, and be honest about your own shortcomings, hurts, hopes, and doubts = relatable/authentic/*real*/accepting/loving in the model of Jesus without conditions or expectations.

At least, that's my story. It can create a rub in "the circle" that makes others uncomfortable, but that's not the objective. It's being real about being real. I don't want to go back (Mark 2:22). As a result of the hard changes I've grown through, I have new/more/renewed hope!

Get on your boots.
http://terminalconfession.com/ RyanWeaver

Authenticity is not always agreeable and readily accepted. Seeking "relevance" can lead to a an in-authentic (umm… un-authentic? ill-authentic? anti-authentic?) faith.
http://www.twitter.com/danieldecker Daniel Decker

Amen. Be bold. Speak truth. People want it.
Marshall

So your saying my bono sunglasses, ripped jeans and my obama hope t-shirt need to be trashed?
How am I ever going to relate to them crazy teenagers wearing my turtle necks and pleated slacks?
http://intensedebate.com/people/Mitch_I Mitch_I

To steal Hybels line… "the local church is the HOPE of the world". We have to be aware of where people are at and understand that we are stewards of the greatest message on earth. A community with that message is powerful and creates its own culture, constantly drawing others into that same circle of hope and grace. I totally agree, lets put our efforts there. Heaven to Earth Baby!
http://www.noblebowman.com Noble Bowman

Ooooo SNAP! That was Good! I am going to do my best to make sure a few more peeps see that!

For a guy who grew up in the "ultra holiness pentecostal" world of freaky legalism, the idea of relevance was what gave legitimacy to the idea of changing ways that really, really needed to be changed.

But then in some ways… Relevance has started to feel like another form of legalism! hmmmm!
http://intensedebate.com/people/SummerKelly SummerKelly

So… essentially, what you're saying is: Relevance is no longer relevant
right?
=P
Pingback: I stole Los’ post! «
http://www.callmetravis.com travis spencer

best. los. post. ever.
http://www.portraitsofmyself.blogspot.com Amy

I don't know if relevance plays a role in it for me as much as the people whom I associate with church or people I've met along the way whom are strong in there faith and attend church reguarly. Maybe we or the pastors or those people should be asking themselves how to better reach out to the rest of the community and just get them into the door into a world where they feel welcomed and un judged. Maybe it's just helping others to feel accepted and knowing they have a safe haven in the house of God.
http://www.codyknutson.com CJK

I am so glad you have this big of a stage to spit this truth. You have an incredible power with ever key stroke. People will listen because of your following alone. People will hate because of your following alone. Now don't get on your high horse but it's the same with Christ. The more of us that are being real/honest/ourselves, the easier it will be for others to take notice and desire to do the same. That is real.
Whatever you do, keep it up dammit but don't sacrifice this majical power you have for fame.
http://intensedebate.com/people/BenofBenandJacq BenofBenandJacq

There's a CS Lewis quote that I read just this afternoon that addresses this issue.

Striving for relevance is like making the goal "I want more friends." Friends are friends because they have something in common. What unites us to our friends is a common goal or interest. So as we go into the culture with the goal of "relevance" we will never achieve it. But if we make the goal showing people a reason to Live in Christ, we get not only that, but a profoundly relevant ministry, and friends.

The "relevant" ones are the ones creating culture, not the ones trying to mimic it, which is what we inevitably end up doing if we set out to be "relevant."
http://intensedebate.com/people/Alastair Alastair

Just found this interesting book on Amazon (not released yet). Maybe the new fad should be 'unfashionable' rather than 'relevant'. It's no wonder Christ followers are confused these days.

http://www.amazon.com/Unfashionable-Making-Differ…
http://intensedebate.com/people/CaroleTurner CaroleTurner

That'll preach right there brother!!
http://haleyeah.typepad.com/jacinda/ Jacinda

"Preach Preacher!" (In Ty Tribbet's voice)
Pingback: Links of the Week « My World
http://intensedebate.com/people/Beaconhillnw Jim

too many "relevant" churches…i want to bbq in the parking lot and invite everyone over to hang, with no strings and no tracts under the burger buns…
Pingback: Being Relevant « Jake Stum
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http://prophetsandpopstars.com Chris

Preachet, Chien!

If I could speak French…and got add a word to the French vocabulary…Preachet would be French for "Preach It, Dogg!"
http://koffihouse.blogspot.com Koffijah

I think 'relevant' just means applicable. It means we're answering the questions people are having. We're dealing with the issues people actually have, so then our message is 'relevant." If it was irrelevant it means we would be teaching stuff that people didn't need to hear. So, we have liked the term 'relevant' simply because we want our message to be effective rather than ineffective. However, somewhere along the way, the word 'relevant' became a buzz word. It stopped meaning applicable and started meaning "cool" or "hip." It became "culturally relevant" or "fashion-style relevant" and stopped being about spiritual relevance. Hope is very spiritually relevant, because it is what we need.
Pingback: Expounding on Relevance and Relationship « tonychavezblog.com
http://www.tonychavezblog.com Tony Chavez

I re-posted this post on my blog last week. Check out some follow up on this subject. http://www.tonychavezblog.com
Pingback: LINKS IN THE WEEK______ holla (April 3 2009_) « Straight Up
http://intensedebate.com/people/kellen_owe kellen_owe

we are called to preach truth. hope faith love. these are always relevant. if we're asking how we can make it more relevant, we ARE asking the wrong question. i think it really goes along with being "in the world" but not "of the world." the question of relevance came out of christians creating such a bubble for themselves that they no longer were even "in the world." they were in their own little world.

so, i think the relevance question came out of a good place, namely, "how can we be "in the world" again." however, i think that time has passed now.

los, i agree with you that it is ALL about real relationship now!
http://intensedebate.com/people/Inyene Inyene

My Cousin as you said when you came for Experience during our choir reheasal in House on the rock Lagos Nigeria, l APPRECIATE you been relevant in such a time like this giving your whole heart in doing what you know how to do best.
l felt God when you were worshipping and l tell you l can't still recover from it, you have a real relationship wit God and you left me wondering if l really know who lam serving?
you are real and in a very good relational terms wit our Daddy and l desire to follow your foot steps.
http://intensedebate.com/people/Inyene Inyene

l desire to be relevant to my generation and you are doing a good job.